#220 - Beverly

Adeel [0:00]: Beverly welcome kind of thing and then we can get started, I Cool, well, Beverly welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.

Beverly [0:04]: Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful to be here with you today.

Adeel [0:15]: No, it's great to talk to you. I mean, do you want to tell listeners a little bit about roughly where you're located, what you do?

Beverly [0:23]: Sure, I am 58 years old and I live in Southern California now, but I grew up in the Midwest and I was the youngest of five daughters, all born in five and a half years. So a a Catholic family.

Adeel [0:42]: wow, okay. Trying to do the math there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Beverly [0:49]: So yes, it was a pretty loud house, but fortunately I grew up in a big house. So I had my places to self-isolate. So I think that helped enormously with five screaming kids growing up. You know, looking back, I try to remember when it started, but my dad... had a nickname for me and he called me ears. So I think that's an indication he was definitely aware that I was hyper aware. But we never talked about it. Like, is this why you're having meltdowns? Is this why you're angry with the family? It was more just of a mocking, here comes ears. Yeah, so I definitely had sensitive hearing and obviously we didn't know about misophonia and really didn't have a way to process what I was feeling from that. One of my earliest memory, very specific memories of having misophonia was I was probably about 10 years old. And my bedroom was above our kitchen and my sister was repeatedly shuffling a of cards just like over and over and over and I screamed down, you need to stop that, shouldn't stop. And I went down and punched her in the back until it really knocked the wind out of her and I felt bad, but that is the level of rage that I felt when I heard repetitive sounds.

Adeel [2:41]: Yeah, for the fight or flight, you went for the fight in that moment.

Beverly [2:45]: Yes, I would say that was my often go to.

Adeel [2:49]: Yeah. Was that your often go-to? I mean, at that age, a lot of us, yeah, I mean, that's...

Beverly [2:53]: Yeah, I mean, when you have sibling, I had one, it was with one specific sibling that that was closest to me in age. And I think my rage came out into this like, punching and hitting in the back and I would feel bad about it. But yeah, it definitely put me into

Adeel [2:58]: Yeah. you Mm-mm.

Beverly [3:20]: fight or flight and freeze as well, but mostly fight or flight.

Adeel [3:26]: Gotcha, gotcha. And in your film, it sounds like you're being mocked was, mean, did that change at all over the course of your childhood?

Beverly [3:37]: No, it probably my mother was incredibly sensitive and we were very, very close and she was very protective of me, which, you know, now as, as adults, I'm learning, have resentment from some of my sisters about how protective my, my mother was of me. but she, she left, at a pretty young, she left initially, she came back,

Adeel [3:47]: you

Beverly [4:06]: And then my dad remarried and so when I was 10 years old, that's why I remember the memory of the shuffling of the cards at 10 years because when I was 10 years old, my dad and stepmom moved back in. And no, my dad definitely mocked and was pretty cruel to me my entire life. So my mom was protective, but she wasn't. physically there in the house. We remained close and I processed with her. you know, it's interesting. I was definitely known as the angry one in the family and she was protective of me. But I don't think I really identified that it was because of the overwhelming of the sound. And that kind of came in later in life.

Adeel [5:04]: Okay, so the general kind of angry, I don't know, volatile child is kind of what your vibe was to the rest of the family.

Beverly [5:15]: Yeah, mean, in the house. Now outside of the house, in school, I had friends. I was a pretty normal functioning child outside of our house to the point like my sister would say to my friends, how, she would say to my friends, like, how are you friends with her? Like, she's so difficult. But I,

Adeel [5:18]: Yeah.

Beverly [5:44]: managed okay outside of the house. But inside of the house, was definitely the baby of, and I am the, I was the youngest, so I was the baby of the family.

Adeel [5:52]: Yeah. Were you being triggered at all? Do you remember at school or from friends?

Beverly [5:59]: What I specifically remember, so I think, and I do believe there's a spectrum of misophonia. So I don't think there's a, you have it, you don't have it. I think there's degrees of it. And so where it really, you know, then and now gets triggered is when I'm in stressful situations and I'm trying to focus.

Adeel [6:07]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [6:27]: So for me, it was test taking. I don't remember being triggered in school. I'll come back to something. where it really, when I was test taking, if somebody erased an answer and I had to listen to the erasing of that, and I would just put my hand in my hair and want to pull my hair out.

Adeel [6:48]: Mmm.

Beverly [6:55]: because I could not focus on taking the test or if somebody tapped their foot or their finger. so, you know, looking back on my report cards and it was just a consistent, know, Beverly's smart, but her grades don't reflect her understanding of the material. And it was a hundred percent I could not focus taking tests because any little noise while test taking was, could,

Adeel [7:13]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [7:24]: I often didn't finish tests because I would just sit there. That's when I would sit there and freeze.

Adeel [7:28]: Yeah. Right. What was the thing that you wanted to get back to?

Beverly [7:35]: just that it's interesting looking back how much I don't know if it was luck or design. And I think part of it was because I had four sisters and the five of us kind of didn't branch out to to hang out with other people. But I went home for lunch every day. in grade school. So my sister and I would just walk home for lunch. So I don't remember being in a lunchroom environment listening to people eat. So I think I was pretty isolated with that. And then as I went into junior high and high school, I definitely had disordered eating most of my life. And I would often eat when I was alone, but not in public. I don't you know, reflecting back, did I do that because I didn't want to be around people eating? I don't know. But I would often in junior high and high school not eat lunch. I would volunteer to do things for teachers or I would do anything but eat. then when I got home from school, I would eat. I wasn't. And we also were a family that we didn't have sit down dinners together.

Adeel [8:51]: Bye. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [8:59]: We just all fended for ourselves and eventually when my stepmom moved in she would make dinner for us but we did not sit down as a family to eat. So I didn't have a lot of triggers around eating but my eating was often isolated.

Adeel [9:16]: Gotcha, yeah. Yeah, no, I wanted to, well, at least when I got into the workforce, I really did not enjoy eating with coworkers, at least in the, yeah, the early years. I enjoyed my coworkers later, but yeah, when it was a big age difference, I just assumed because I was just bored by these old guys, but I feel like there probably could have been a misophony component. because I just didn't want to sit and hear the chit chat and the, you know, all the sounds that come with talking while eating. So going, just before we, yeah, I want to get into, you know, later on adult and maybe other, I don't know, comorbid stuff. Sounds like there was some, some other stuff going on there, but what was, I don't know, do you mind getting into a little bit of the timing around your mom's presence in the house and not, and unpresence?

Beverly [9:50]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, I don't mind getting into it. It's interesting because I've been reflecting as I've been listening to your podcast and hearing mother-daughters and family dynamics. I see trends. I've unfortunately, my mom died at a young age. by the time I knew

Adeel [10:26]: You knew I was gonna get into that. Hmm.

Beverly [10:44]: It was the sound that was what was irritating me. It's not a conversation I ever had with her, regrettably. She died at 53. So I didn't have a conversation with her about this. what I've been thinking about as I've been listening to your podcast is when she, my dad was a narcissist. You know, I do not blame her for leaving.

Adeel [11:11]: A male narcissist? That's an interesting...

Beverly [11:14]: I don't, I don't, I don't. I empathize with her leaving and you know, it was the early 70s. know, feminism was coming up. was raised to be, you know, have, you know, be a cat, have five kids, you know, marry the first man who comes along. And then suddenly she's told to burn her bra and, you know, be independent. So, you know, I understand that was going on with her.

Adeel [11:33]: Yeah. Mm-hmm. you

Beverly [11:48]: So she left and she just lived down the street initially. so we still saw her. And then my mom and dad, they shared us. So my mom had crazy custody arrangement. My dad had us from 7pm to 7am and my mom had us from 7am to 7pm. So twice a day they crossed paths, which was a little bit strange. And then she had us as sole custody. I mean, we would visit my dad on the weekends for maybe a year or two, I don't know the exact timing, but I have very little memory of her being in the house with us. And that's because she isolated in her room at her typewriter. She was in school, she was always in school and she was writing, she wanted, she was an aspiring writer. So she was writing documentaries, she was writing, just writing a lot. So I wonder,

Adeel [12:40]: Hmm.

Beverly [12:57]: her isolating and type, you know, doing her, she very rarely interacted with the five of us daughters. And, you know, I wonder, did she have sound sensitivities? I don't know. But she definitely, I saw she didn't engage with the five of us daughters as a family. very often and I you know I wonder what what was behind her isolation I mean we were screaming kids and where she would say she would shut her bedroom door she'd be at the typewriter typing and we would be screaming and fighting and she would say don't bother me until somebody's bleeding so you know what was behind her isolation I don't know

Adeel [13:35]: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Fascinating. Okay. No, yeah, I'm just curious kind of what the family dynamics was. You're painting a bigger picture here. Yeah.

Beverly [14:01]: And then when I was 10, it was on my 10th birthday, so it was a very memorable day. My dad remarried, my dad and my stepmom moved in. we now, my stepmother, in today's world, they would diagnose her with Asperger's. So that was a interesting communication dynamic we had.

Adeel [14:11]: Hmm.

Beverly [14:28]: meaning she just kind of talked at us a lot and there wasn't like a role model for for co-regulating with the parental figure. It didn't really exist.

Adeel [14:43]: Wow, okay. And what, other than the cards, do want to get into a little bit of who's triggering you, what were the triggers?

Beverly [14:56]: Well, to be honest, because I had a lot of isolation, it was definitely test taking in schools. And then I just think, I don't have specific memories of, I just know that I got into overwhelm and the noise in general was an issue. And it wasn't until I was older.

Adeel [15:06]: gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [15:25]: that and I'll share that situation working in an open workspace that really, became the I knew I had an issue.

Adeel [15:33]: Yeah. Yeah, the straw that broke the broke Beverly's back. Yeah, okay. Well, interesting. So yeah, and so just to wrap up, like, it wasn't like in childhood, there wasn't like a, you know, a specific didn't start with mom or dad or like a specific family member, it was it was general overwhelm. And then the test taking in school and stuff. Got it. Gotcha. Okay.

Beverly [15:46]: Literally, literally. Yeah, that's the story goes actually. Yeah. Yeah. And then the specific memory of the shuffling of the card. So I think it was like, it was anything repetitive. I would get angry.

Adeel [16:12]: Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. obviously, growing up, doesn't sound like they would have taken you to a therapist or anything like that, or an analyst, as they called it back then.

Beverly [16:28]: No, and interestingly enough, my mom was a psychiatric nurse at a psychiatric hospital, working with schizophrenics. So she was working with extreme mental illness. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But she had, so she was a psychiatric, she was a trained nurse, she was working as a psychiatric nurse with Reaganomics, those budgets got cut, she lost that job.

Adeel [16:41]: Wow, like a one flew over the kookies nest kind of situation,

Beverly [16:57]: And then she got her master's and PhD and she became a psychologist ultimately. Yeah, I mean, so she was a, you know, trained in psychology. So, but yeah, I mean, this, this was, you know, the 70s and 80s. So this, these were, you know, I also have, I know you asked about comorbidities. I also realized I had undiagnosed ADHD my whole life. And that's something just in the last few years, I've been learning and understanding.

Adeel [17:12]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [17:36]: more about. But that is, you know, I think in the 70s and 80s, it just wasn't something the schools or the parents were looking for.

Adeel [17:46]: Right, right. What were some of your, the manifestations, do you remember from the 70s and 80s of the ADHD?

Beverly [17:57]: lack of focus in, in studying. So I, I am an overachiever. So to get through my studies, I had to be very methodical. I couldn't read a book and, but I could outline a book. So I would painfully outline books. had a chalkboard. I would pretend that I was the teacher and I would chalk.

Adeel [18:06]: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Beverly [18:25]: I everything out. So I spent a lot of time painstakingly studying and in retrospect, I realized that's ADHD, the inability to read a book without outlining it almost verbatim is definitely a sign that it's something I had. it's just, it's...

Adeel [18:42]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [18:52]: It's, you know, they just weren't looking for it then. So it's unfortunate that it, and I think, I knew it took me longer than everybody else to study. I knew I spent more time, but I just, I think it was almost a badge of honor for me that I spent so much time studying to stay where everybody else was.

Adeel [18:55]: No. Gotcha, gotcha, okay. And then I guess, I mean, as you're getting into high school and college, how are things changing, if at all?

Beverly [19:33]: And I mean, again, I think it was luck on my part that because I was a bit of an overachiever, I often had like private places. So even in college, by my sophomore year, I was the editor of the yearbook. So I had a private office for a couple years in college. And so I

Adeel [19:38]: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Beverly [20:02]: I didn't study at the library. And I got lucky my first year in the dorm. I had a roommate from Southeast Asia who was as quiet as a mouse. And she had a boyfriend who lived in an apartment. So I almost had my room to myself. And then I had my own private office, which I realize is really weird.

Adeel [20:29]: Yeah.

Beverly [20:31]: I went through college and I was like, my staff sat in open workspace and I had a private office. So I think I got a little bit lucky with that. then when I started my career, because it was the early 90s and the open workspace thing hadn't happened, I had jobs with a private office. And also in the early 90s, they didn't have snacks in the office.

Adeel [20:35]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [21:00]: way they do now. you know we we ate lunch we went out to lunch and we ate at lunch and I don't recall being triggered by anybody because nobody was eating chips and we just that just wasn't the culture of going to work people didn't eat in the workday. And I my first job was in a cubicle and I would I would

Adeel [21:01]: Right.

Beverly [21:29]: go into my colleague's cube under her desk and hide. And she was like my, you know, best friend at work and people thought it was weird. They're like, where's Bev? And they're like, she's under Stephanie's desk. And it was, I realized in retrospect, I was in complete overwhelm in a semi open workspace. And so I would just go, I'm overwhelmed. I'm going to go sit under somebody.

Adeel [21:55]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [21:59]: It's just, so I just figured out how to isolate and remove myself from the overwhelming situation. And then for several years, I had jobs that had private offices. So again, it wasn't a big deal. And then I moved into ad sales.

Adeel [22:00]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [22:27]: And my first job doing that, and I owned my own business for several years, so I had my private office doing that. And then when I went into ad sales, we had an open workspace, but I was in sales, so I was out in the field, or working from home. So again, it wasn't too difficult for my life, and I was able to thrive in that job. But then this is where the story turns. In 2012, my dream was to work at Facebook. And I got a job at Facebook Los Angeles in 2012. And when I went for the interview, the office, we only had 17 people in the office at the time. And I walked through the door and I saw the open workspace. And I mentally gasped and I

Adeel [23:18]: you

Beverly [23:25]: I was, I knew it was going to be a problem. And, but I wanted to work there so bad. I knew it was going to be a cultural important place to be. And so I'm like, you know, you got to pull it together. You got to do this. So I got the job and lots of free food, lots of snacks.

Adeel [23:27]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah.

Beverly [23:54]: Lots of chips. And it wasn't cubicle environment. was my, like, I had a colleague six inches to me to the left and a colleague six inches to me on the right. And in addition to that, and this is this was not company wide at Facebook. This was the culture of the LA office. They played music really loud like we were at. Yeah.

Adeel [24:06]: Yeah. Really? Okay.

Beverly [24:26]: And I would say, Hey, do you think you can, you know, you also have to remember this was an office primarily of 20 something 30 something people. And I was 46 at the time, something like that. And so I'm like, do you guys think you can turn the music down? And you know, they're looking at me like, okay, old lady, you're not a culture fit. We shouldn't have hired her.

Adeel [24:34]: You're right. Yeah. Boomer.

Beverly [24:55]: This is a big mistake. And they were like, no, if you don't want to work, if you don't want the music, this is our culture. You shouldn't be working here. no, somebody actually said that to me. Like in a very unkind way. And

Adeel [25:09]: Did they actually kind of say that or was that the impression you got? Yeah, wow.

Beverly [25:24]: So I was in complete overwhelm. I so then I just, you know, I had a job once where I crawled under my colleagues desk, you know, I can figure this out. I'm a I've got grit. I'm a tough girl. can figure this out. So my grand idea was we were we had a bigger office. I was like, cool, I'm going to go sit down the hall.

Adeel [25:36]: Hmm. Punch her in the back.

Beverly [25:51]: All those empty desks down there, we haven't hired people yet for, I'm just gonna go sit down there. So I sat down away from all my colleagues. So there's 16 people in the office on one end and then there's me at the end. And the music was still bad, but it was less bad over there. And I would frequently go down to my car and just cry. I was like, can't, I,

Adeel [26:11]: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Beverly [26:20]: I am at my Woodson and I would just cry in my car and try to pull it together. And I was still in ad sales. So I would go out, you know, I was, you know, probably 50 % of the time I got to be out of the office.

Adeel [26:32]: Hmm.

Beverly [26:36]: But then HR came to town and they said, hey, we need to talk to you. Why aren't you sitting next to your colleagues? And I said, well, the music and the chip eating and the this and the that. And they said, you know, it's really important that you fit in with the culture. and this is a problem. And I'm like, but you know, when I go up to Menlo Park to headquarters,

Adeel [26:56]: my god.

Beverly [27:06]: you can walk through a football stadium size hanger and it's quiet like you can hear a pin drop. This is not the Facebook culture. And they said, yeah, but it's the LA culture. And it's important that you fit in with the culture. so I was actually between this and other situations, I was put on a performance plan. And one of the reasons was because I wasn't fitting in with the culture. And that one of the stipulations for me to keep my job was that I had to move and sit next to my colleagues. It's so ridiculous looking back on it, but it was very, very difficult. And so I moved back, so that I'm on a performance plan, which means I'm one step away from getting fired. And my nervous system is shot.

Adeel [27:37]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Beverly [28:03]: And within a couple weeks of being put on the performance plan, I put my back out. So it's funny you said, the straw that broke the camel's back. I put my back out because I was told, you know, don't stop complaining, fit in, be quiet, do your job or you don't have a job. So I really wanted to keep my job. So.

Adeel [28:20]: Yeah.

Beverly [28:31]: I was like, okay, I'm gonna play by the rules. I'm gonna figure this out. And my back went out. so for three weeks, I literally could not stand up straight. My back was in so much pain. And I would go to client luncheons and bend over, get there early, sit at the restaurant, and then let the client leave. And then I'd hobble out to my car.

Adeel [28:48]: you

Beverly [28:56]: And then I had a vacation planned and I went to this resort in Mexico and I was in so much pain with my back. And I went into a Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement lesson, which is a somatics movement. And I did this lesson and 45 minutes later I stood up and my back pain was completely gone.

Adeel [29:24]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [29:26]: And I was like, what just happened here? And I went up to the teacher and I'm like, what was that? What is this? And I need more of this. And she said, I have 28 free lessons on YouTube. Just go home and do those. So I go home and for 28 days in a row, I did a lesson every day before work. I started coming into work and I wasn't dysregulated the way I had been. And I was, I'm not going to say my misophonia went away, but I was able to tolerate and, and spoiler alert, I stayed at Facebook another six, seven years after that. I would not have been able to stay there without having a tool.

Adeel [30:18]: Mmm.

Beverly [30:23]: that regulated my nervous system. And so for me, it was doing these Feldenkrais lessons every day before. So I had been in triathlon. I completed an Ironman. That's another way I think I self-isolated a lot. did an Ironman. You're like, I'm riding. I'm running. I'm doing something.

Adeel [30:25]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know some triathletes, yeah. It's, you'll be right, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [30:49]: It's very time consuming and you spend a lot of time alone. And you know, did I do that for years to have more alone time? Probably. But so I kind of traded out for for 18 months. I'm like, you know, I'm going to prioritize doing these Feldenkrais lessons over swimming, biking and running. And I would show up to work and it was I was happy.

Adeel [30:59]: I would. Yeah. Hmm.

Beverly [31:17]: And I would tell my colleagues, I'm like, my God, I laid on the floor this morning and I did this movement and I twisted my arm and it was so cool. And I was, I just loved it. And it really, no, it didn't get, didn't, but I, but I, like everything around me just kind of softened and got easier. know, initially when I worked at Facebook, I had just got,

Adeel [31:30]: Play the music louder. It didn't go that far.

Beverly [31:46]: gotten out of a long term relationship. And then I was like, I can't date. I can't meet somebody because I was so exhausted working at Facebook. When I got home, I was beat. And when the weekend came, I needed two days. But once my system was regulated by doing these lessons, I was able to start dating. I was able to start having a life outside of work. I had more energy. I felt better. And I was able to tolerate the situation that I was. I mean, I'm not saying somebody could eat a bag of chips next to me and I was a happy person. I would remove myself from those situations. But I also, what this method gave me was because these lessons are all about neuroplasticity and brain rewiring. So I began to slow down. and realize I had choice. So if the chips started being eight, instead of like going into rage and only hearing the chips, I would breathe and I would say, okay, what are your other choices here? I can get up and leave or I would often do something somatically. So I would notice how my feet were touching the floor. I'd move my toes around. How are your toes and your shoes and little techniques like that. then Feldenkrais talks a lot about foreground background. So you where your attention is, is on the foreground and background. And what I could do is bring the foreground of my attention of how's my thigh touching my chair. And then the chips became in the background. And

Adeel [33:41]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [33:42]: Before I had this tool, the chips were in the foreground, the foreground, the foreground, and I couldn't push them in the background because you can't push them in the background. They're there. The chips are there. But how do I shift my attention somatically to how my feet is touching the floor? And so the chips can now go into the background. And so it just became... Such a helpful tool for me.

Adeel [34:14]: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, as you know, like, it's a very limbic system reaction or misophonia. It's kind of very reptilian. So, finding a great tool that kind of lets you access that from the more cognitive side. think, I think it's kind of maybe what's, what's, what's happening is trying to, is trying to, talk yourself down, talk that reptilian Beverly down or, or, or shift that attention. because it just latches on from some primitive sense of fear.

Beverly [34:49]: Yeah. Yeah. Just and I, I think the shift I had after I left Facebook, actually so I actually became a Felton Christ practitioner. And this is kind of where my story goes. So after I left, I ended up leaving Facebook right before COVID by choice, which was important for me that, you know, that

Adeel [34:51]: very cool.

Beverly [35:18]: that performance plan never led to me getting fired and I was able to maintain and be somewhat successful there and leave on my own terms. I specifically left, well four years before I left, I knew that this Feldenkrais method was helping me so much and I was I, before I went through the training and before I became a Feldenkrais practitioner, I thought, my God, this is going to help everybody. This is for everybody. This is, I got to build an app. Everybody has to have less than everybody's got to do this. Everybody. So I had that, that very, I guess, self-involved, like non-self-awareness that all unique and what works for me may not work for somebody else. But what studying felt in Christ, I did a four-year training program while working at Facebook. It's a eight week a year training program. so I was coming to San Diego and Facebook at the time did not allow remote working, but I was able to work eight weeks a year. remotely just managed to work it out. I was like, I got to build an app. Everybody needs access to this. This is going to solve everybody's problems. And so that was my original intention. my intention has actually come to reality. So I have just launched an app so we can bring these lessons to more people. But I'm more aware now. that we all have to be our own scientists and we all have to experiment because a lot of people will say, well, you need to meditate. You need to meditate. Well, I have ADHD. Meditation isn't going to work for me. you got get hypnosis. got to get hypnosis. And I did hypnosis.

Adeel [37:23]: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Beverly [37:46]: I've done the hypnosis test where they can determine if you're hypnotizable or not, and I'm not. So it's like, you know, listening to your past episodes, you know, yes, meditation is going to work for some people. Hypnosis is going to work for some people. So it's like, I think we all have to be careful. There's no one fix. And so this is something that worked for me.

Adeel [37:52]: you Mm-hmm.

Beverly [38:15]: But I think as we're all our own scientists, I think we all have to try different modalities to see what works for us as individuals.

Adeel [38:27]: That is a huge insight. I just want to say that that's something I realized over the last couple of years. And Sarah talks about that as well as like there are many ways into misophonia. Yes, there's obviously like some strong commonality, because there's many ways in, and yeah, there's overlap. Obviously we have interesting challenges, but there has to be many ways out. And yeah, I mean, it's

Beverly [38:36]: Yeah.

Adeel [38:53]: That's why there hasn't been one thing that's worked for everybody. Some people swear by certain things in certain capacities and some don't. So yeah, that's something I think a lot of people need to realize about misophonia, not just about misophonia and about, know, this is a whole other conversation, but there's many modalities to address a lot of issues. And in our system, we usually get

Beverly [39:16]: Yeah.

Adeel [39:19]: pigeon-holed into one, whatever our insurance company decides is valid or that they will pay for and then we kind of get, we might not get something that works for us and then people just kind of give up looking, which I think is a horrible thing, a horrible...

Beverly [39:33]: It exactly, and I think we're all discouraged right now with federal funding being pulled out. But I want to look at the silver lining, not that I think any of that's going on is good, but I want to look at the silver lining of

Adeel [39:45]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [39:55]: we have to be our own scientists and do our own experiments because the reality is a medical research study is going to give you the average person this medication works for, the average person this works for. And this is what I learned as a Feldenkrais practitioner and with my Feldenkrais training.

Adeel [40:01]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [40:19]: was when I graduated and my mentor convinced me, I never wanted to be a practitioner, that was not in the plan. My plan was to build an app and make these lessons helpful to people. But my mentor was like, you really should open a practice and see what it's like working with people. And I have to say what I, and so I opened my practice and I would have clients come to me and be like, I have an old ankle injury. And I would meet with my mentor and I'm like, what do I do for an old ankle? What's what lesson do I give her for an old ankle injury? And she's like, I don't know, I haven't seen her, you got to look at her how she moving. There's not. But there's no, I'm like, I wanted a manual, somebody comes in with lower back pain to give them this lesson, somebody comes in with wrist pain, they get this I'm like, where's my manual for being a Feldenkrais practitioner? And they're like, did you not pay attention in the training? Because we're all unique people and you need to work with that person and see what works with the person who shows up on the table that day. And that may even be a different person next week. And so I think I have huge respect for physical therapists and how PT has helped me with injuries in the past.

Adeel [41:18]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [41:41]: But I think we have to remember, they kind of, my understanding is, you know, they have kind of a manual, okay, for this injury, you get these exercises. And those exercises are for the average man. You know, we now know they've never done research for women. So the average man who has, you know, a pulled hamstring, these are the exercises. And that's going to be the

Adeel [41:56]: Anyway...

Beverly [42:08]: five foot 10 160 pound man and so if you're a five foot two hundred pound woman how is that and so I think the way Feldenkrais approached it was and that's why the Feldenkrais lessons are all audio lessons because you don't unlike yoga or Pilates you don't look at the instructor and try to mimic what they're doing because what feels good for them

Adeel [42:36]: Mm.

Beverly [42:37]: isn't what feels good for you. And so you it's slowing down and listening to yourself how what makes me feel good in it. You know what, it took me a lot of practice to get there. Because we're so accustomed to mimicking how other people do what's the right thing to do what's correct. And it's like, what's correct is what feels good. But if you can't notice what feels good, then what do you do? Well, that's, you know, why they call it a practice because it does take practice to slow down and sense and know what feels good for you. And, and yeah, I just, think it's a great practice to be able to be a curious scientist in investigating what works for you. And with Mesa-phonia, it's like listening to your podcast and learning about modalities. I hope people listen to this and go, this is something I want to check out. But it's not going to be for everyone. But for the people it works for, and if you have curiosity and you give a few lessons a try, it might be the one for you. But another modality may be as well.

Adeel [44:05]: Yeah, no, it's great to take that perspective. Yeah. And I hope, yeah, people get that. Um, for sure. Yeah. I've, uh, yeah, I've heard a lot of commonalities, then a lot of, yeah, different, different things that have helped people. Yeah. A lot of things people have tried that's worked for some and not others. So it's, you're right. It takes an open mind. It takes, you need to be, yeah, you need to run your own experiments on yourself. Um, because the system is not built for built to run experiments on you and try things out to see what actually will work. But you're right, it's very much, we're in a very population level decision. So it's like, what will work for most people? It even goes down to, you're not supposed to get blood tests for a lot of things because it won't help most people.

Beverly [44:34]: Yeah.

Adeel [44:59]: but it might help a lot of people. mean, it might help a decent number of people if they find out something that will potentially save their life. We're very much in kind of an average, common denominator health system, I believe.

Beverly [45:14]: Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Because that's, you know, and the thing people want the ant, they want to go to the doctor who has the right answer, you know, tell me what's wrong with me, fix me. And I mean, that was challenging when I was working as a Feldenkrais practitioner, like the clients who came to me that had the mentality of fix me. Like, I, you know,

Adeel [45:40]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [45:44]: I can make you feel better for the next hour, but it's your awareness and your self use that is going to keep you feeling good. Um, and so, I mean, that's the whole chiropractor mentality. They, mean, Feldenkrais is similar that we both want really well aligned musco musculoskeletal systems, but they're going to snap you there, but then you're going to snap back. with Feldenkrais, we gently move you in that direction. And then it's your awareness. You catch yourself falling in your own patterns and then you, you're aware of those patterns. So yeah, it's really about, I think that's the greatest thing that I learned as a practitioner was, how unique everybody is and that the body is meant to heal. And it will heal if you give it the opportunity and you slow down and you change something. So I think pain is a signal to change something. And I think our misophonia is a signal for how do you remove yourself from that situation? How do you put it into the background instead of the foreground? And just being the scientist and figuring out what works for you and knowing things can get better.

Adeel [47:14]: Hey, yeah Right, right. And yeah, you alluded to something there that I've been thinking about a lot is misophonia potentially being a signal. feel like we're too many people are like, how do I get rid of this defect in me? You know, how there must be some kind of a brain issue we need to be researching where I think in a lot of cases it is a misophonia is a signal, whether it was a signal from during childhood. that we don't need anymore or it's continuing to be a signal now because we need to change something. It's like a flashlight trying to guide you to a better place. And I feel like anybody who has kind of like gone relief from misophonia in some way, Sarah being an example, like it has helped many aspects of that person's life. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

Beverly [48:13]: Yeah, like, believing it's our superpower. As opposed to like what we want to be like everybody else, right? We want to eat lunch and eat chips. We want to go to loud concerts. want because that's what all the cool kids are doing. That's what culturally we're supposed to do. But if we say, look, I'm a unique bean and I like lunch alone.

Adeel [48:40]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [48:43]: I like, you know, what skill can I do? so we've just launched an app called, it's a website too, called Paws-Chur. And we, I've short formed the Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement lessons, because with my ADHD, 45 minutes was a really long time for a lesson and that's the standard Feldenkrais lesson and Most of the lessons that were available to do at home were recorded in live environments So there's people coughing there's you know teachers have repetitive Sounds that they you know, they're they're filler words that to filler words drive me nuts So on the one hand, these lessons were calming my nervous system. But on the other hand, I was slightly irritated because they were recorded in live environments. So I feel that my superpower at this point is I listen to these lessons. I have a sound engineer who engineers them. But I make sure we take out all the annoying sounds or we record them specific for somebody who has misophonia. But I also so I, you know, as I'm going through these lessons, and I'm editing them, I'm like, most people would be like, this lesson's fine. You don't need to take you don't, you don't need to take a cough out, you don't need to take a squeaky chair out. But

Adeel [50:09]: Yeah. right.

Beverly [50:35]: I know for me and people who have misophonia, it needs to be edited. And I also believe that while the general person may do a lesson and not be irritated to the level we're irritated, it's not doing their nervous system any favors to be doing a lesson in hearing coughing, hearing tapping, hearing, you know, I think their nervous system is going to be even better reset. And it's because I have the superpower to sit and go, these need to go. And I think it gives us the level of focus and intention that

Adeel [51:12]: Right.

Beverly [51:18]: can help other people whether they realize they need it or not.

Adeel [51:23]: Right, no, this is great. Yeah, congrats on the launch and yeah, know, hope it helps a lot of people. That's great that you're combining kind of your, I mean, you basically have a tech background. Look at Facebook and bringing that in here. Amazing. And do you wanna maybe talk about how, you know, since you've been doing this a lot, post Facebook or during Facebook as you were taking these lessons, like how has your misophonia kind of changed during that time?

Beverly [52:00]: It's interesting because I left Facebook just before COVID, just as COVID was starting. because I was pretty isolated during that time. And interestingly enough, my former partner, he also has misophonia.

Adeel [52:06]: Yeah.

Beverly [52:22]: So it's funny because as I listened to your podcast, people are like, I've never met somebody who's had it before. And I'm like, I was in a relationship with somebody who also had it. I actually, I talked to him, I think it was yesterday, because I'm more curious now. So I was asking him because I think I discounted his misophonia, because his is not as bad as his mine.

Adeel [52:29]: you We're gonna have them, we're actually gonna have them on next week. I'm just kidding. It never is, right? I'm just kidding.

Beverly [52:52]: but he had, it's a competition. And so I think I, I'm like, yeah, right. You don't have it. And he's like, you don't understand. Somebody was eating chips at work. And I really, and I'm like, did you want to punch them? And he's like, no, but I was irritated. And I'm like, you don't have it. Cause if you didn't want to punch them, you don't have it.

Adeel [52:57]: Yeah. you Hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right, if you're not fantasizing certain acts, yeah.

Beverly [53:20]: You only just wanted to leave the room. Yours isn't as bad as mine. But so during COVID, you know, we were pretty isolated. I began to believe all that, you know, I do two Feldenkrais lessons a day, I have been cured of my misophonia, I am certain I am cured. I was certain I was cured. Well, then when restaurants started opening back up, and we went out, I'm like,

Adeel [53:47]: Yeah.

Beverly [53:50]: Yeah, not quite cured. Because I can hear that cutlery on the plate and we need to change seats. So I'm certainly not cured. I and I you know, I'm no longer in an open workspace. I work from home privately building posture, I zoom with people. So it's, you know, it's hard to say because I don't work in a work

Adeel [53:52]: You Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [54:17]: open workspace. And I think I managed most of my life pretty well until I worked in that open workspace. So it's hard for me to say, you know, how quote unquote cured I am. But I think I've just, I have figured out a lifestyle that works for me. So I'm, I'm pretty happy.

Adeel [54:40]: Great, cool. Yeah, I mean, yeah, look, we're getting to about an hour. Yeah, I mean, anything else you, I guess you wanna share with people? Yeah, I mean, about your journey. I'm curious, one thing, just kind of like your, I guess, relationship with your sisters. you, I don't know if your dad's still around, but do you talk to your family now about, know, this phonia and kind of like... related events from years ago.

Beverly [55:13]: it. a little bit. I mean, they all know all my sisters know that I had because I think at some point, the question you didn't ask me when did I learn it had a word. And, and I would say it was in 2013. While I was working at Facebook, I simply googled Why do I hate noise so much? And got my answer. And it huge relief, right? Like just to know I'm not

Adeel [55:15]: Yeah. yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beverly [55:43]: the only one that is so irritated by these things. So I think when I discovered those articles, I shared them with my sisters so that they were aware. And so they'll make little comments like, if they're eating or whatever, does this bother you? And there was a period of time, my niece was living with me for about a year. She moved to Los Angeles and she,

Adeel [56:04]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [56:12]: was living with me and she, you know, she was like, we'd be sitting there eating and she'd be eating soup and I'd look over at her and she's like, is this bothering you? And I'm like, yeah. And either she or I would get up and go somewhere else. So my family's aware and, and respectful of it. They're, they're not teasing, or mocking me about it. They're respectful of it.

Adeel [56:39]: Well, that's great. Gotcha. No, it's great that helps. mean, when you are together, at least that it's not going to overblow your nervous system. Kind of like anticipating that the next trigger.

Beverly [56:39]: But I don't spend a lot of time with them. We all live in different areas. Yeah, I just, did just, I did go back and all five of us girls were together a couple of weeks ago. We actually were at a dinner and all was fine. Yeah.

Adeel [57:04]: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Very good. Very good. Yeah, I know this is is this has been great. Bev and yeah, like I said, anything else, anything else you want to want to share with listeners? I know a lot of people will be yeah, we'll be getting a lot out of this and I'm sure we'll.

Beverly [57:25]: Yeah, I mean, I would, I would love for listeners to experiment with the Feldenkrais method, whether it's with the posture app or, you know, other places, but I would say that in with the posture lessons where we've, we have lessons between five and 30 minutes, most of the lessons are between five and 30 minutes. So we've tried to make it so that people can make it a daily. ritual to help reset their nervous systems. We even have a 21 day nervous system reset to, you know, for somebody to try it and see if this might be one of the modalities that works for them. And there's, there's no videos. You don't look at anybody. You just listen and they're all very well sound engineered. So they're quiet. And also Moshe Feldenkrais, he built these lessons like in the 1940s and 1950s. And the word neuroplasticity didn't even exist until the 1990s. And he said he was after flexible brains, not flexible bodies. So he understood it was about brain rewiring. And what is

Adeel [58:30]: Hmm.

Beverly [58:46]: important is how much the brain craves novelty. So when I do lessons over and over and over, you start to tune out and you're not really rewiring the brain because you start to, you know what's coming. So right now we have over 350 lessons in the app. and we should have 500 by the end of the year. So we're going to keep creating new lessons so that people can have that novelty for the neuroplasticity so that you can get that brain rewiring and through those new rewiring, you then have choice and you can start to make better or different decisions than you've habitually had. So I would love for people to try it and see if it might be a modality that may help them.

Adeel [59:39]: Yeah, fantastic. I'm going to have links to all this in the show notes. Yeah, I've been I had to while you're talking at Google film in Christ just to see how I was spelled. And at first I thought you were something to do with Christ. And I was like, hmm.

Beverly [59:49]: Yeah, I mean, that's the, I definitely, see that's issue and that I want to give Moshe Feldenkrais all the credit he deserves, but we have buried the word Feldenkrais from the posture app because I know the name, it's difficult to market. So I 100 % want to give him the credit, but I also want to make this more mainstream so that more people will try it. So even the posture app, we rarely reference Feldenkrais. We've buried it a little bit, but we've worked with the Feldenkrais Guild to make sure that legally we're giving him the credit he is due for sure. But yeah, the name is tricky.

Adeel [1:00]: Mm-hmm.

Beverly [1:00]: Yeah, and posture is not the easiest name either, I realize, but it, I'm hoping, yeah. You take it, yeah.

Adeel [1:00]: You get the idea, you get the pun and it works. Cool, well awesome, yeah, I know I'll have links. I'm looking at the App Store page right now. It looks great. yeah, best of luck with that. And yeah, thanks for coming on, Beth.

Beverly [1:01]: Thank you, I really enjoyed chatting with you and I'm really grateful that you are doing such a great service to the Misophonia community because we need it. So thank you so much.

Adeel [1:01]: I appreciate it. And cut.