Bonus Episode: Joyce Cohen (NY Times) - Landmark misophonia article's genesis discussed

S4 E9 - 4/30/2021
This episode features an intriguing conversation between the host and Joyce Cohen, the author of the landmark New York Times article on misophonia titled “When a Chomp or a Slurp is a Trigger for Outrage.” Joyce shares the story behind the article, revealing that it took a year and a half to convince the Times to publish it and highlighting how it aimed to validate misophonia as a legitimate condition. She details the challenges encountered, including the mixed-up understood conditions like hyperacusis, and the role of credible publications in legitimizing such conditions. Joyce also addresses her personal experience with hyperacusis, distinct from misophonia, and expounds on the ongoing struggle of living with auditory sensitivity. Additionally, the conversation touches on the intricacies of coping with sound sensitivities, the societal implications of nuisances like dog barking in close neighborhoods, and ends with reflections on the future of living with conditions like misophonia and hyperacusis amidst technological advancements and societal perceptions.


Adeel [0:00]: Welcome to this bonus episode of the Misophonia podcast. So about 10 years ago, the New York Times published an article called When a Chomp or a Slurp is a Trigger for Outrage. That article was probably the first really mainstream article about Misophonia. And it comes up in conversations time and again as the article that really validated the condition for people with misophonia, and for friends and loved ones, because it's the article they could share and say, see, it's even in the New York Times. I was able to catch up with the author of that article, Joyce Cohen, and she was very kind enough to spend some time with me talking about that article and some others she's written, and also just her thoughts in general about misophonia. Now, a couple of notes. The audio is a little weird just because I was recording the phone call from a regular microphone. And so it has that phone quality sound to it. Also, you could probably tell I'm a little nervous talking to a Times writer, let alone the author of an article that changed a lot of Miss Phony lives. I also should warn you that the topic of suicide does come up, particularly because one of her other articles does deal with a tragedy involving someone taking their own life. Now I'll have all the links to Joyce's articles in the show notes, but for now, I hope you enjoy this bonus conversation with Joyce Cohen. Thanks for taking the time. This doesn't have to be too long, but I think it just, you know, I've talked to like over a hundred people now on the podcast and, you know, your article just comes up a lot as I'm sure, you know, that's, you've probably heard from other folks. But yeah, I just wanted to hear a little bit about kind of maybe like, How did, like, how did you get the idea for that article? You must have known about it or had you experienced it as well? I'm curious kind of how that came about. Oh, wait, back up one second.

Episode [1:58]: Because you had said, like, a lot of people mentioned my story. So what have you heard? Like, what have they said? I mean, it was the first mainstream piece.

Adeel [2:10]: Yeah, it just, it comes up. Yeah, so what happens is, I mean, what usually, what's so common, as you probably know, is like, you know, people suffer with this since, you know, around preteen years, and then they go into adulthood. At some point, you know, around 10 years ago is when a lot of people just got better at Googling. And people just start Googling. And, you know, the New York Times article, largely because of, you know, SEO these days, it just comes up near the top. And what happens when people first realize that Miss Funny has a name, they just start reading everything about it. Sometimes they don't even sleep. It's just such a revelation. And, you know, your article is just one of the common ones that explains it. to a layperson in a very approachable way. Everyone's trying to give it some legitimacy, so they like to often quote, hey, the New York Times is talking about it. I read the article in the New York Times. It's usually the one that they pass to family members or partners to get people to take it seriously. That's one reason it's propagated, because it gets shared around a lot as well. And you know I wrote a piece about Michelle Lamarche-Moresse. I have that on my screen right now. Yeah, I didn't know about that until I was doing a little bit of research for this. So, yeah, I was going to ask about that as well. I probably heard about that, but that's crazy. I didn't forget about that until now. Do you have misophonia yourself? I thought I saw an ABC News video piece about a Joyce Cohen in New York, and I wasn't sure if that was you or not. Was that you?

Episode [3:54]: That was me, but I do not...

Adeel [3:58]: Okay. Okay. So they were talking about hyperacusis, so do you have hyperacusis?

Unknown Speaker [4:05]: Right. Right.

Episode [4:29]: If you describe them, there are sort of similarities to people who don't know about them, and so they've been conflated, and they're different. But no, I do not have this on you.

Adeel [4:39]: Okay, okay, gotcha. All right. So then, when you wrote the article, what led you? Did the New York Times assign that to you, or was that something you came up with yourself and wanted to share it?

Unknown Speaker [4:53]: I fought for a year and a half to get that into the paper.

Adeel [4:56]: Oh, wow.

Episode [4:58]: So, you know, the internet, 10 years ago, the story came out 10 years ago, the day after Labor Day, 2011. And I fought for a year and a half to get it into the paper. The internet was still kind of new then, or at least it's had a lot of transformations in the last 10 years. And so on hyperacusis message boards, there was a huge amount of confusion. And people would mention they had dysphonia. or they had whatever symptoms they had, and it wasn't hyperacusis, but nobody got it right. So I thought this deserved peace, and there wasn't anything in any mainstream publication. I knew I needed to get Misophonia in a credible mainstream publication to give it legitimacy. I fought for a year and a half to get it in, and the science editor said... Well, there doesn't have to be any real science on it, but you need, like, a real scientist to indicate that this is real and this is true, this isn't made up. And so Adi Muller from the University of Texas was, he was key there, and he has written a lot about auditory disorders and chronic pain, and he was sort of instrumental in talking about misophonia and being quoted. So, oh yes, I said I fought for a year and a half to get it in the paper. And then at one point, there's a book I think called Annoyed or Annoying or something. They were doing a review of this book. And most of the stuff in the book was about noise. Like people being annoyed by noise. So they didn't want to run my story too close to the publication of the review of this book. So they postponed it for another however many months. So finally, a year and a half later, it...

Adeel [6:41]: Gotcha, okay. And did you start to get a lot of reaction right away? Like, were people like, oh my god, or was it kind of more of a slow burn?

Episode [6:48]: The New York Times had some kind of agreement with the Today Show that they had, I forget, it was four stories per month or something, where the Today Show had, like, the right of first refusal and one story on it, and this came up instantly. Yeah. And so the Today Show was interested, so it ran on the Today Show, it was the following week, it was on the Today Show, and Tom

Adeel [7:13]: And that was the, that was the interview where in the green room there were, there was carrots in there. Okay.

Episode [7:19]: Yeah, that was, I was in the green room with Heidi Salerno and they had snacks and I took a carrot or a baby carrot and then I was horrified. I didn't realize it until afterwards. I was absolutely horrified that I had done this in front of Heidi. But yeah, I was in the green room and they had Ada Siganoff who was, she was in California. Her piece was taped and then they had Heidi on live and I was in the green room in the background, and they had Dr. Raj, Dr. Roshni Rajapaksa, who was the doctor, talking about it. And, of course, she'd never heard of it, so I prepped her. I had, like, two minutes before they went on air, and she'd read my piece. And in those two minutes, I talked to her.

Adeel [8:06]: So, wait, so they had a, so they got a doctor for the show who didn't know about Miss Phony other than your article, and then you coached her for two minutes, and that was, uh, and then they put her on the show? Yeah, I mean, they had, they had a medical expert. Okay.

Unknown Speaker [8:20]: He's a gastroenterologist.

Adeel [8:22]: Yeah. That would be amazing if there turned out to be a link between Gastronomy and the future.

Episode [8:30]: But she took it very seriously. The worst thing she said, though, she just said, like, you know, it's very unknown and research is going on and we're learning more every day.

Adeel [8:43]: No, we're not. We're not learning enough. I mean, there's now a fund, the Milken Institute. I don't know if you heard about that, but in the last couple of years, they've been... Yes. Yes.

Episode [8:52]: Yeah, they're funding... I mean, I'm not quite sure what's going on with them now, but they were funding... They're funding Mississippi research and...

Adeel [9:03]: Yeah, and they have been. This is, I think, the second year, and I think they're continuing to do requests for projects and are funding projects every year. I was just talking to Dr. Rosenthal at Duke about it, and he's like, yeah, I mean, they're getting funding from there, and he's seeing the funding go out to a lot of groups. So that's pretty new just in the last couple of years, and it looks to be something that they're continuing. So that's quite promising. That definitely wasn't around 10 years ago.

Episode [9:34]: Right, it completely wasn't. I mean, 10 years ago, I'm sure people were considered, it was like a laughing stock.

Unknown Speaker [9:39]: You were a laughing stock if you complained about something so stupid.

Adeel [9:42]: Right, right, exactly. In fact, the suffering is just unfathomable. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and speaking of suffering, do you want to talk about that other article you wrote? I guess it was, was it in 2016, the tragedy with the woman on the side?

Episode [9:58]: So, Michelle Lamarche-Morat. had been posting in one of the Facebook misinformation groups, which I occasionally look at. And it was just clear to me that she was, like, smarter than anybody and suffering so much. And she had actually contacted me to ask some questions because she had read my time story. And so I hadn't been in touch with her for about a year. I was thinking of her. And I saw the headline. And the headline was, historian, no, the headline was, it was just something like, expert in Russian history had killed herself. And as soon as I saw that, I knew. Because her field of study was Russian history. And some of the things later on said she was Russian. She wasn't Russian, she was American. She was from either Chicago or Miami. Or Florida. But she had studied, and I think it's a scholar of Russian history. So she had studied Russian history and had a PhD. And, yeah, the minute I saw the headlines, I knew. It was like the perfect Cowboy story, right? Yeah. So I called up the people I know at the New York Post, and I said, I know why Michelle killed herself.

Unknown Speaker [11:22]: So I wrote that story. I had a lot of correspondence from her. And, um...

Adeel [11:29]: She didn't tell anyone.

Episode [11:30]: She didn't tell anyone but me some of those things.

Adeel [11:33]: Right. So she corresponded to you. Were you also responding back to her with, I don't know, with anything like coaching or... No, I gave her what information I could. Yeah, okay.

Episode [11:46]: Which is, you know, I can know about this funny about being able to fix it or without being able to help. Right. So, and what happened was she lived in a... big new condominium building on the east side. And there had been construction within the building, and I believe it was an apartment one floor below her and one unit over. So it was sort of like diagonally below her, or sort of kitty corner one floor below her. And they had done a renovation. And, you know, these are multiple dwellings, and all the pipes and infrastructure, all that stuff's crammed into the walls. Yeah. It can, you know, a pipe can vibrate against another pipe, or like the water's running, it can make something rattle. So this created some kind of background noise in her apartment. And it drove her, you know, it drove her to distraction. She had nowhere else to go, and nobody took her seriously. And she had actually investigated with the people upstairs, and it wasn't the people upstairs. She at some point was able to identify where the people came from.

Adeel [12:58]: Yeah, wow.

Episode [12:59]: Yeah, she killed herself. They found her. I don't know if she overdosed. I think she overdosed.

Unknown Speaker [13:03]: They found her in bed with a pillow over her face.

Adeel [13:06]: Wow, that's tragic, yeah. Had other people... have other people reached out to you before or after that, just in a similar way, maybe obviously not ending in such a tragic way, but, because, you know, a lot of people don't, as I said, don't talk to anybody about this, and I think when they see somebody who seems to, like, know, as this woman did, you know, what they're going through, they might want to reach out. I'm just curious if you've had, like, a series of people over the years try to come find you. Yeah, a bunch of

Episode [13:43]: Half a dozen or so. Occasionally, people I know have said things, like someone I know has an aunt who has misophonia. And as it turns out, my neighbors across the street growing up, it seemed to be inherited. And it was father, daughter, and granddaughter. And the granddaughter, it made some kind of... remark on Facebook about how she hated popcorn in the movies she hated other people eating popcorn and I learned from that that her mother has it and her grandfather so when I was a child the grandfather well when I was a child the family would eat dinner around the TV they had the TV on loudly and they'd eat dinner around the TV and I just thought that's what they did we ate dinner around the dinner table but they ate dinner around the TV and now years later And yeah, I've gotten some correspondence. After Michelle killed herself in my piece, I heard from two people who knew her, and one of them was one of her grad students in England, who said, no, she killed herself because she had a crappy marriage. I said, well, she may have had a crappy marriage, but people, well, I don't want to say that people can kill themselves because of their lousy marriage, but that's not why she killed herself. Right. And it may have been she had a bad marriage because of her misophonia.

Unknown Speaker [15:16]: Because she complained so much about her husband and how he didn't understand and couldn't help.

Adeel [15:20]: Yeah, right. Was not accommodating or just, yeah, wasn't understanding.

Episode [15:25]: That could be... But yeah, so I heard from a grad student of hers and then I heard from another friend of hers. She apparently made a suicide attempt at some point earlier, maybe six months earlier. And the friend had called the police. The friend was not on site. The friend was upstate. and knew she was about to kill herself, called the police, and they stopped it. But I don't have any further details about that.

Adeel [15:47]: My friend contacted me afterwards. Right, right, right. Okay, gotcha. And I guess, yeah, maybe, yeah, I don't know, fast-forwarding it to now, so you're not, so you're writing about other things now, right, like real estate, but are you, it seems like not about misophonia issues per se.

Episode [16:04]: I generally write about residential real estate.

Adeel [16:06]: Right, right, right.

Episode [16:08]: And I've written a few things about misophonia.

Unknown Speaker [16:09]: I have another piece of,

Adeel [16:12]: Oh, in where? I think when Scott News, when Choir Please came out, when Jeffrey Scott Globes' piece came out, I did a piece in Scott News. Gotcha. Yeah, that was a great, yeah, that was another milestone, that documentary, to get a lot of people into the fold or just raise awareness. But it sounds like you're, I mean, you're writing about it, but it sounds like you're still staying abreast of hearing issues. Well, sure. Right. Right.

Unknown Speaker [16:43]: Right.

Adeel [17:01]: And you got in touch with Dr. Johnson, I guess, for that original article. I'm curious, did you know Dr. Johnson before? I mean, she's kind of a luminary in the field. She's another one who kind of mentions your article as one of the milestones of raising awareness. Other than hearing from sufferers, are you in contact with some of the researchers still over the years? Well, sort of sporadically. I didn't know Marcia Johnson. Okay.

Episode [17:30]: But I'm sort of sporadically in touch with them as and when I do a piece. Yeah. Or as and when I write a story. And now, Misophonia has sort of taken off so much. It's kind of like, I gave it, like, launch velocity.

Adeel [17:43]: Yeah.

Episode [17:43]: And now it's out there in the world.

Adeel [17:45]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's been great.

Episode [17:48]: And then, I'm hoping that... Because I think, well, I think before my piece in the Times, people couldn't articulate the problem. It was like the problem of the name. Like, they didn't know what to call it. They didn't know it had a name. They didn't know other people had it. Right. You know, a lot of people are annoyed by noise anyway. So this just seemed like being annoyed by noise only to a much greater degree. So it didn't necessarily seem like a real thing until it was articulated and had a name. And by the way, so my piece in the Times ran the day after Labor Day 2011. And I had actually had in there that it was also called...

Adeel [18:28]: That was the old name, yeah. Selective Sound Sensitivity Syndrome. Yep, yep.

Episode [18:33]: Yeah, and that got cut out in the editing, and the editing was kind of rushed because it was, I didn't have a regular science section copy editor because of a holiday. Yeah. And so that got cut out. And so with the name 4S, or Selective Sound Sensitivity Syndrome, which at that point may or may not have been Soft Sound Sensitivity Syndrome, I can't remember, that got cut out. And so... Misophonia got into the mainstream and into the literature because of that, and there was no sort of alternate name.

Adeel [19:07]: Oh, interesting, yeah.

Episode [19:09]: I don't know what would have happened with the name if 4S had also been in that story, and given it a different name, it didn't sound so... I don't know if misophoning sounds scientific or weird or like no one knows how to pronounce it, but 4S is sort of more accessible in a lot of ways, but it never made it into the story.

Adeel [19:29]: And I still wonder what would have happened if that had been in there. If the science editor wasn't on a holiday for Labor Day. Yeah, if it had a science copy editor, it would have been the day after Labor Day, so that the regular science copy editor was...

Unknown Speaker [19:47]: you know, if the regular science copy editor had been working that day. I mean, I don't know.

Adeel [19:51]: I'll never know. Honestly, I think misophonia works. I mean, I know it's less, maybe less accurate than selective substance use syndrome, but nobody wants to say selective substance use syndrome. I mean, 4S, yeah, but that's kind of even more kind of cryptic, so I think, I don't know, I think things kind of worked out. I mean, I could argue in both directions, but we'll just never know what would have happened otherwise with a different name. Right, right.

Episode [20:14]: But it's still the same sucky thing no matter what you

Adeel [20:17]: Here, here. Yeah, for suicides, yeah.

Episode [20:20]: There's also, you know, we wonder sometimes, like, how many crimes, like, assaults or murders might happen because of these things, you know, because somebody...

Adeel [20:46]: just went a little too far. Most of us have these thoughts, but we kind of keep them completely at bay. Oh, right.

Episode [20:53]: I'm sure there are many, many crimes because of that.

Adeel [20:56]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Episode [20:57]: And sometimes you see in the news, you know, there's a noise dispute.

Adeel [21:00]: Someone shot someone or someone killed someone.

Episode [21:02]: Well, a noise dispute may or may not have been a misogyny dispute. I mean, people don't like noise in many cases. That's why the book about annoyance was mostly about noise.

Adeel [21:14]: Well, I don't really. There are a lot of avenues now. There's a lot of stuff online, and you're a podcast, and...

Episode [21:44]: Research is going forward, so there's a lot more awareness than there had been and probably than there ever could be in a different time, you know, in a non-internet age.

Adeel [21:59]: Right, right.

Episode [22:01]: And at some point... it gets repetitive. I mean, at some point, you know, everyone complains about the same thing. There's nothing new under the sun. You know, they complain about chewing. And, you know, if 50 people are complaining about chewing or about the dog working in spas, there's nothing new about that. You know, they get irritated or enraged when someone chews. And, you know, there aren't that many variations on that. I mean, you know what I mean? There could be. But, um, so at some point, you know, the conversation just sort of repeats itself.

Adeel [22:37]: Yeah.

Episode [22:38]: And it doesn't really, there's not really anything to advance the conversation. I mean, until there's a scientific breakthrough or until there's, you know, something they discover, you know, more fatty myelin in the brain or whatever it might be responsible for, or the nuclear gene. Until I find that, I'm not quite sure what else.

Adeel [22:59]: What else to add? Yeah, what else to add? We're just going to wait and see. Have you heard, what are some of the, I don't know if you have heard other more kind of interesting stories other than Dr. Mores, maybe not quite to that tragic level, but have you heard some other kind of wacky, interesting stories over the years from people who have suffered misophonia? I probably don't even know all the articles that maybe have written about it, but you might be aware of some other stories.

Episode [23:27]: One thing I find is, you know, I write about residential real estate, and I've actually had people who, had people, wait, wait, sorry, I'm trying to get to cough and not talk to them at all at once. Sure, sure. But I've had people that I've been discussing my real estate stories with, and they have dysphonia. And I mean, somehow it comes up in conversation. I had one woman who said, you know, at one point she just really, really, really snapped at work and she had to really apologize because one of her colleagues was just really getting on her nerves and it was like the only time that it ever happened at work. And then there was someone else, it was a young couple in Brooklyn and somehow this came up and it was a husband who said, he was on the subway and someone was, I don't know if someone was chewing or clipping their nails or something and And someone else was standing on the subway with him, and they sort of caught each other's eye. And they both started at the same time saying, misophonia. Oh. And then I was talking to a doctor at Stanford about a completely different medical subject. And it came up, and his wife has misophonia. His wife just hates it when he chews. And so... It just comes up. And I think some people have it mild and they don't even, like, you wouldn't necessarily know except that it comes up. Like with my neighbors across the street growing up. I wouldn't have known except on Facebook the granddaughter wrote how she hated people chewing popcorn in the movies.

Adeel [25:03]: Right.

Episode [25:03]: And I wouldn't have known except for that. So sometimes it comes up just sort of incidentally.

Adeel [25:07]: You're right, it does come up. People have a mild form, but it's usually like, when you tell people there's a fight-or-flight sensation, that's kind of when people are like, oh, the light bulb clicks, or they're like, it's probably more just an annoyance. It's that fight-or-flight sensation that really kind of clicks with people, and they're like, yes, that kind of explains a lot of my childhood and later years.

Episode [25:35]: Well, the fact it's hidden is a real problem.

Adeel [25:38]: Yeah.

Episode [25:38]: I mean, I think with any hidden condition, that's a problem. And if you can't see it or prove it in some other way, you know, you can't do it. You can't figure out with a blood test. You can't figure out with medical imaging. I mean, maybe you can if you're Dr. Kumar.

Adeel [25:53]: Right.

Unknown Speaker [25:54]: You know, putting someone in some kind of zillion dollar machine.

Episode [25:58]: But other than that, it's hidden.

Unknown Speaker [25:59]: And I think that's...

Adeel [26:03]: Everyone talks about how they bottle it up and there's a shame and guilt because it's not just that they feel the pain, but they feel bad for the... Because they don't... It's hard for us to... At least before we knew it had a name, it's hard for us to accept that we should be feeling this way. It's like... it pains us to kind of, you know, glare at our parents in a mean way and have them feel bad. Then it makes the sufferer feel bad. And after years of that, it just kind of really weighs on people as kind of another problem.

Episode [26:40]: Yeah, and other people aren't doing anything wrong.

Adeel [26:42]: Right.

Episode [26:42]: People are chewing or breathing or something. They're not doing anything wrong. I mean, everyone breathes. Everyone has to breathe. They die if they breathe. Right. So that's another aspect. And it's also, I think,

Adeel [26:56]: Right, right. You mean the misophonia is a condition in a skipper? Well, yeah.

Episode [27:01]: No, a person with misophonia is never going to be around other people who aren't breathing.

Adeel [27:06]: Right, right. So there's so many circumstances under which other people can inadvertently cause a great deal of distress. Right, right. I mean, you can close your eyes if you have visual triggers, but it's hard to be completely... turn off to listening to things. Yeah, well, I mean, it's great to get kind of just the context as to kind of like how this all came about and kind of the backstory to kind of one of the more kind of impactful articles written about Miss Phonia and it really kind of, I mean, it honestly changed a lot of people's lives.

Episode [27:40]: Well, I think at some point it would have come up again because a few years after my piece, you know, Baron Lerner wrote a piece. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so, you know, it would have come up at some point, but I happen to be the one to bring it up.

Adeel [27:56]: Right, right. Yeah, no, and we all appreciate that. And, yeah, thanks for taking the time here to just kind of give us a little background here. And I'm glad that you're kind of still, yes, still on, you know, learning about subject, even though, even if it's not like a day-to-day thing. But it's... And hopefully we'll hear from you again. Maybe there'll be a breakthrough and you'll get to write about it.

Episode [28:22]: It sort of sucks that there's not really much at this point that can be done.

Adeel [28:26]: Right. You know, it's all sort of coping or management, but, you know, that's the way it is.

Unknown Speaker [28:31]: That's the reality.

Adeel [28:32]: Yep, yep. And for your... I mean, just quickly, just for your... I mean, how's your hyperacusis these days? Have you learned kind of new ways to manage it?

Episode [28:43]: It's sort of... You always learn, but you never learn. I mean, as time goes on, you get much better at managing it. But it's still more a case of having to protect yourself from injurious noise. But hyperacusis is a little bit different because a lot of healing goes on. So as long as you don't re-injure yourself, I mean, it responds to noise. It responds to noise, it responds to quiet. So you get better in the quiet and you get worse in the noise.

Adeel [29:12]: Ah, gotcha, gotcha. Okay, okay. So there's a bit of a back and forth there. I see, I see. Okay, okay. Cool. Well, yeah, Joyce, again, yeah, thanks for doing this. Yeah, I'll let you know when this goes live. I'm going to try to surprise it on my followers and whatnot.

Unknown Speaker [29:31]: And speaking of Darren Lerner, have you spoken to him?

Adeel [29:34]: I've not, I've not. That'll be next on my list, I think, yeah. Are you in touch with him by any chance? In any way? Okay, I can reach out to him too, but yeah, that would be... He seems to be pretty mild.

Episode [29:54]: So I don't think that... I mean, one of the things he said was he hasn't gotten worse. I think it's basically stable and it's been like that for decades. Okay. So he, you know, he copes really, really well. Yeah. Or, you know, he isn't as severe as...

Adeel [30:18]: Yeah, a lot of people, it worsens from their 20s onwards, and then it's kind of like... Then they have to kind of really focus on it, and it probably plateaus because they really either, you know, made sure that they... Like, somebody I was talking to today has, like, sound machines in almost every room of his house, and so... There's somebody I was talking to today, his main trigger is... neighbors' dogs. He can't seem to move to a house that doesn't have dogs around him that trigger him. So he actually has some device that he's put on the fence between his house and his neighbors that automatically emits that kind of anti-dog high frequency noise as the dog is barking. And then eventually the dog learns to not come towards that part of the house.

Episode [31:05]: We had in our Oh. I don't write the real estate community, but we had a real estate question about barking dogs, and the comments, there were like a thousand comments. I mean, those kinds of things. Yeah. Thousands and thousands of comments. Right. And it's a really tough problem. I mean, people are allowed and entitled to have dogs. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker [31:30]: And dogs bark, and the barking can drive you crazy.

Adeel [31:34]: Right.

Episode [31:35]: And yet again, that's the reality. I don't know what the solution is to that.

Adeel [31:39]: Yep. Yep. Right.

Episode [31:41]: I mean, that happens. Here in New York City, you know, a lot of times we see real estate listings and we'll see things like, sorry, no dogs. You know, the building doesn't allow dogs. Or the landlord doesn't allow dogs. They say, sorry, no dogs. Right. It's like, why is sorry part of this? You know, the building doesn't allow dogs.

Adeel [31:58]: Yeah.

Episode [31:58]: That's okay.

Adeel [31:59]: Yeah.

Episode [31:59]: It's okay to have a building that doesn't allow dogs. You don't have to be sorry about it.

Adeel [32:03]: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a... Yes, it's a human thing. Human canine thing now. Cool. Well, yeah. Thanks again, Joyce. I don't want to take too much more of your time, but I think this is super helpful and will be super interesting for people to listen to. Any other gossip before we go? Not that I can think of.

Episode [32:33]: There's, you know, the origin was, there used to be, like, the Hypercuse's network, which was sort of before Facebook, and there was some discussion of misophonia on there, but that's basically been eclipsed by newer technology. Right. You know, Facebook Reddit, stuff like that, Instagram, and so nobody posts there anymore, so all the confusion is no longer, you know, it's sort of like, that's obsolete. Like, the Hypercuse's network is obsolete, or message forums are obsolete. Right. Well, here's the thing. One of the subjects I think is most interesting is whether people are reluctant to have kids because they don't want to attach them to their kids.

Adeel [33:12]: Yeah, that topic, kids, does come up. It's like, if they have kids, it's like, well, when are they going to start triggering me? Or am I going to pass it on to them? That's another common question. Because we don't know, like, how hereditary is it? Sometimes it's not. And so, yeah, and then should I even have kids? Yeah, that's an interesting thing to explore. Well, anyway, this has been really interesting.

Episode [33:37]: And, you know, keep me posted if you have anything. Yeah. I will let you know when it goes live.

Unknown Speaker [33:45]: And yeah, let's keep in touch. And other than that, have a great, great, great weekend. Yes, I do. I do. Yeah. Thank you.

Adeel [33:49]: Have a good one. Bye.