David - Preemptive strategies and personal growth in Misophonia.

Adeel [0:01]: Welcome to the Misophonia podcast. This is episode 20 of season 4. My name is Adeel Ahmad and I have Misophonia. This week I'm talking to David in New Jersey. David reached out to me last year with a paper he wrote for a university course. The paper is called Early Recognition of Misophonia, A Case for a Preemptive Approach. I'll have a link in the show notes. In it, he surveys recent literature and therapies and argues for something I think we all agree on, looking for misophonia much earlier and trying to identify it and provide therapy before it has an impact on a child's social, educational, and emotional development. You'll hear how this is very personal to David because he himself was impacted by the way he was treated growing up trying to deal with his misophonia. We talk about cultural components, something called dialectical behavior therapy, breathing techniques, and a number of other things. I'll have links to articles that he mentions in the show notes as well. We'll talk about how all David's thinking about misophonia has evolved over time after counseling and therapy and what it has meant for his family. It's a really powerful episode. I hope you'll enjoy. Of course, if you are enjoying the show, the easiest way you can support is to hit a rating wherever you listen to this podcast, or even leaving a short review if you like. This helps get this podcast recommended to more sufferers. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Misophonia Podcast, or Twitter at Misophonia Show. One announcement from the Baylor College of Medicine. You'll know that a past guest, Dr. Eric Storch, is leading misophonia research there. They are seeking participants to complete a misophonia treatment strategy survey. They're conducting a study to understand perceptions and preferences for various treatment approaches that could be applied to helping individuals with misophonia. The team there is seeking information directly from adults with misophonia as well as parents of children with misophonia about acceptable and preferred treatments. They hope to understand individuals' preferences regarding different treatment approaches which can be used then to develop future intervention approaches. Qualified participants must be adults over the age of 18 who either have misophonia themselves or are a parent of a child with misophonia. The study requires completion of an online survey with descriptions of available misophonia treatments and questions about participants' thoughts and feelings toward those treatment options. For more information, I'll have links in the show notes for both individuals with misophonia and parents of children with misophonia. And now, here's my conversation with David. David, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.

David [3:06]: I'm so glad to be here, Dio. Really.

Adeel [3:08]: Yeah, so you reached out, you know, too long ago. I would say it's been hard to, you know, schedule time for both of us. But you sent a, well, let's maybe start with, you know, like to ask kind of where people are located, roughly.

David [3:24]: Burgundy, New Jersey. That's right by George Washington Bridge heading into above Manhattan, New York City.

Adeel [3:33]: Okay.

David [3:34]: And so, yeah, that's a short commute for me.

Adeel [3:36]: Cool. Okay. And yeah, you reached out a while back with, with some, uh, with some research you'd done or a paper you'd written. Um, are you, um, are you doing a, um, some kind of a graduate? Are you doing some kind of, are you a researcher? Um, yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about what, what you do.

David [3:55]: Yeah, it's been my goodness. I think it's been just about a year, you know, um, So when I reached out to you the first time, a couple months before that, last March, I believe, is when I started my journey into going into the helping fields, which is counseling, and that deals with psychology. And so during the summer, I took abnormal psych, and the assignment was to do a literature review. These were prerequisite courses in order to enter the graduate program. And so I chose the topic of misophonia. In other words, I knew about misophonia, but at that point, I still didn't accept how much it had affected me. But as I continued with the research, boy, it really changed my life to know to learn about what's out there.

Adeel [5:00]: So you obviously said misophonia has affected you. Did you realize that it had a name before you embarked on this project?

David [5:10]: Right. So maybe four years before last year, I heard about misophonia for the first time. And the way I came across it was that I was seeking out general counseling. I was struggling with my life and I'm a religious person and so I sought out a religious counselor but one of the things that I did as I was searching was just looking up my effects because when you're searching for counselors and you get into this psychological realm I started dabbling with my Google searches and started putting in Like, oh, I get angry when I hear certain things. And that's when I found out about Musophonia.

Adeel [6:02]: Yeah, yeah. I'm always curious what people put in that Google box when they first learn about Musophonia. That makes sense. Angry at sounds. That's probably going to be high. Okay, interesting. Okay, so this is about four years prior to last year. Interesting. Okay. Well, maybe, maybe let's keep going back, I guess, to, um, yeah, it sounds like some interesting stuff has happened, but how far in terms of misophonia, how far back does it kind of go for you as, as far as you can recall?

David [6:35]: Well, so, you know, part of the, um, counseling program was for me to go, uh, they require 15 sessions of counseling. And as I began speaking with my counselor, I started to think way, way back. And I've always been a, you know, I have high neuroticism trait and referring to the five big traits of ocean. And so I've always been pretty sensitive. But as it refers to sound, it's, you know, similar to people right around, like right before puberty hits, you know, the 10 to 12 range.

Adeel [7:15]: Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. And what kind of environment was it through you? The home environment, the family members, parents that were the first triggers?

David [7:25]: Oh, yeah. So, you know, like many other people, and I always chuckle when I hear others say, I'm pretty sure my dad has it too.

Adeel [7:36]: You know, I literally was just talking to my last interview of about half an hour ago. Same thing. You know, she's she they guess, you know, it's convinced it's hereditary because she's like, yeah, my dad has it, too. Interesting. So was it something maybe was your dad very vocal about?

David [7:57]: sounds i mean obviously he wouldn't know what this funny was but was it kind of um was there a reaction that you were seeing as a young child in your dad right and you know i'm sure others see it as well and i'm not sure how my dad dealt with it for his life but i i would say he has less of a neuroticism trait and perhaps that's what helped him out all these years But there were particular things, like the way we climbed up the stairs, how we shut our doors, our chewing sounds while eating. That's the most common one.

Adeel [8:40]: He would try to correct it.

David [8:43]: He would correct it, right. He would correct it in a very frustrated manner. So he'd lose his temper.

Adeel [8:54]: Yeah.

David [8:55]: Right. Like, why do you have to do that? Or, you know, close the doors quietly, you know, things of that nature.

Adeel [9:02]: Did you have siblings as well?

David [9:06]: Yeah. Yeah. One other thing was like, breathe quieter. And I'm like, okay. Right. Yeah. So yes, about my siblings, I have an older sister and younger sister and neither of them, uh, show these misophonic traits at all interesting but they they did witness obviously all the same um behaviors that your dad was right and he was he was more lenient towards them but i maybe it's just something that i was a self-fulfilling prophecy just because i am more sensitive than they are

Adeel [9:46]: yeah gotcha okay okay did your siblings also trigger you like were you was it noticeable that you were um showing signs of some misophonia maybe getting teased or did you were you just completely bottling it up inside with my siblings i throughout my years there was a lot of you know why do you have to overreact so much like just be patient control yourself like

David [10:15]: so sensitive you know that's pretty isolating and right yeah yeah it was pretty isolating but it was never towards you know you you couldn't i couldn't attribute it to anything because i didn't know at the time so some of that um some of that uh you know people telling you to control yourself and don't uh don't overreact i mean so i have you know i have a

Adeel [10:40]: south asian background um i'm guessing that you're also have an asian background do you think there's maybe some kind of a cultural bias towards uh you know we don't we've you know our background you know my cultural background mental health is not you know these kinds of things are not really talked about uh i'm curious if that if you felt that that ever kind of played a part where you were you you know on top of everything you were feeling um you were not encouraged to kind of especially as a male, talk about these kinds of things and maybe that exacerbated it?

David [11:13]: The cultural component, as you know, is huge in the Asian culture in respect to patience, right? Being patient in regards to self-control and body mannerisms is huge, so it's ingrained in you to be still, be patient, which, like you said, exacerbates the situation.

Adeel [11:46]: Right. Yeah, it's kind of like, it's interesting. The West kind of, you know, all this kind of talk of Zen kind of is almost, you know, looked at heroically and admirably. But if you're going through triggers or something, whether it's misophonia or otherwise, that could be torture, you know, to force yourself to push things down and push things out. It's kind of an interesting point there. So as you were getting older then, you know, as you're going through school, how did it start to manifest itself maybe at school? Did it start to proliferate as you were in school or did that, as it inevitably does, start to multiply after, you know, you become more independent?

David [12:36]: Right. So, you know, I was looking back, I realized misophonia really was like my training whip. In other words, you know when they want to train an animal, they whip it until it does the proper act. Not so much these days, but when they loosen the chains of the animal, Because of that training, they, you know, they don't free themselves. They are trained to do what their master had done. And so, New Symphonia has really put me into a, I realize, a stupor throughout my whole life. Again, that training of, well, the cultural component of just be patient, just be quiet, don't be a nuisance, has turned into... me being frozen, right? There's fight, flight, or freeze. And I realized for most of my life, I was frozen. Anytime something bothered me, anytime I was triggered, even in regards to fighting or a female situation where I was being, where there was a flirtation going on in high school, everything would be freeze. And that's I want to say I attribute most of that to misophonia and the way the cultural component of it reinforced that tree's reaction.

Adeel [14:22]: Okay, so yeah, that's interesting. So everyone's familiar with fight or flight, but yeah, freeze gets talked about maybe less. So you're saying in social situations, whether it's flirtation or what have you, so something's happening, you get triggered, and then you just kind of freeze and shut down? And you're just, it just turns into kind of a, maybe, you know, like you probably feel kind of, I'm guessing, kind of awkward and kind of feel like you're stuck. And then the situation kind of, you know, do you remember this particular event? I think we all are familiar with that, but it's funny how we usually just talk about fight or flight. This is an important other F situation, I think, that doesn't get talked about as much.

David [15:16]: Yeah, so, and let me say, okay, let's talk about the fight, flight, or freeze first. If we look at animals, some animals as a defense mechanism do freeze or like play dead, right? Oh, yeah. So that is a component that doesn't get talked about too much. So that was the component, in my opinion, that was trained through the cultural aspect. And I imagine the things I just mentioned, um, people who do not have misophonia would be like, would respond, well, those are just normal things, normal teenage things that everyone goes through. But again, misophonia exacerbates the situation, right? We have heightened neurology, uh, where it's just a higher amount of decline. I'm not, we're not claiming that we're, um, you know, that different, we just have a higher hypersensitivity, uh, when it comes to our biology. And so one common situation that, um, you know, I've met some of my friends now from the eighth grade and you know, a couple of friends from kindergarten, but they remember that in family gatherings out of nowhere, I would scream at the top of my lungs, you know, everybody shut the F up. And you know, in an Asian household, when you're surrounded by other families, that's just not something that's normal.

Adeel [16:56]: Absolutely not, yeah.

David [16:58]: Yeah, and so people, another hurtful thing on top of that was that, you know, my dad, I guess, for his lack of education in regards to misophonia, was like, Maybe he needs to go to the Senate, like the crazy hospital, you know? So hearing that at that age was, you know, it was pretty hurtful. And you begin to internalize it. And, you know, every one of your guests, I imagine, without realizing, told themselves this internal story that, gee, maybe I am the problem.

Adeel [17:37]: Right, of course. Yeah, yeah.

David [17:39]: Yeah.

Adeel [17:40]: You know, that's, yeah, absolutely. That's very common because as, yeah, I mean, it sounds like a broken record, but I think it deserves to be said as much as possible. There's that shame and guilt that we feel as part of that, which, you know, it gets exacerbated by comments like, you know, maybe we should be in a, you know, in the same asylum or, or, or what have you. Yeah. You kind of definitely will feel like an outsider that, that, where you feel like, yeah, absolutely, we're the problem, there's something wrong with us, and we're never going to be okay. Yeah, that's tough when you're growing up.

David [18:17]: And psychologically, those are the formative years, right? Of course. Whatever gets ingrained in you during those years, it plasticizes in your brain, so it takes a concerted effort to overcome that in adulthood, so... this podcast and other organizations and doctors out there that, you know, tremendous work is being done and it's needed for sure.

Adeel [18:45]: Did you, so as you were becoming an adult, did you start to, um, uh, see therapists or other kinds of counselors to try to crack, uh, crack the, uh, the egg, uh, of your past?

David [18:59]: Right. So, um, the counselor that I've been seeing since, um, this past year, uh, the one that I started seeing in order to complete my program, she has essentially changed my life by changing my internal story. And she did that by continuing to give me positive regard. Like, remember, we just talked about how our internal story is. It's our fault. I have to be patient. I have to do this. I'm the problem. Instead, so knowing this, and thank God she knew about misophonia, she kept being so positive for me and letting me be more compassionate to myself or reminding me to be more compassionate to myself. And a couple months down the road after seeing her, the switch flipped. I had a really healing moment, and I feel so connected. with the universe. I hope I'm not getting esoteric there, but it was life changing.

Adeel [20:13]: Okay. Okay. So yeah, let's, yeah, let's get into that as well. So you start to see this counselor and she's starting to, she knew about miscephonia and she starts to approach it as, I guess you can try to get you from, get you away from blaming yourself, give you, you know, positive reinforcement, you know, What kind of things was she doing for those couple of months?

David [20:40]: Right, so one of the effects that misophonia affected for me was sort of black and white thinking, right? There was no in-between. But for people with our biology, what we feel is truth to us. And so when something's true to your biology and you tell yourself, my God, I'm angry. But then other people say this altered truth of you're really overreacting. That dilemma is so isolating. Again, we're talking about the continual reinforcement of self-blame. And that turns into black and white thinking. It's either this or that. And so anytime I mention the problem, she would help me find a middle ground by saying things like, consider this, or maybe this happened, or maybe this is the case. And so this idea of, even it can be true and not true at the same time. That's a dialectical thing. behavioral therapy. So these other options that she provided helped me phase out of this black and white thinking and negative thinking and automatic thinking.

Adeel [22:14]: Gotcha, okay, okay. So then, so you were trying this out, and were you noticing, well, I guess maybe you have us go to, so what happened in that healing moment? Were you in the middle of a trigger, and there was an epiphany, or?

David [22:31]: The thing that I mentioned, like the practicing certain therapies happened after the epiphany, and the epiphany was, is really, The acceptance that I could blame this label of misophonia on some of my pain instead of blaming myself. Because I was, again, that's partly cultural, right? Like being responsible and, you know, just do your work. Do what you're supposed to do. Take your head down and go far in life. Right, right. And so letting myself free of that and accepting that I had to overcome that I have a different biology that's exacerbating my senses. Once I began to love myself and have compassion for this child that have to go through this that's when I started being more able to practice these other therapies like dialectical behavior therapy in particular again dialectical meaning it can be true and not true at the same time that's an oversimplified version of it but it's it helped me phase out of this black and white thinking that people with our biology can be affected by.

Adeel [24:15]: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, this is interesting. So after that point, as you're trying these therapies, I'm assuming, what changed in terms of your response to misophonia? I doubt it happened right away, but I'm curious, were you able to then handle triggers in the moment better, or maybe you recover faster from them, or just maybe just...

David [24:39]: be at peace with knowing that you will be triggered at certain times i'm i don't want to put words in your mouth but i'm just curious how that changed for you yeah so i i think ultimately it was this uh there's i think it's called labeling theory right if um you're like throughout our lives for my life i i had this label of oh you're crazy But now the label is, oh no, I have misophonia. So once I accepted that label, it opened up a world of, you know, the psychological realm to me, the academic field. So I started getting into learning about the brain, biology, psychology, and that gave me a tool belt of how to handle you know, misophonic events or in general, equip me to deal with life better. So one of the things that you can deal with on a biological level is when our autonomic system is triggered, right? That's the fight, flight or fright system. There's a breathing technique by Andrew Huberman. He's a neuroscientist that's pretty popular in the podcast world these days. And he talks about Wim Hof, I believe his name is. And so there's this breathing technique where you breathe in twice and then you exhale completely. And it sort of mimics our natural whimpering. You know when kids try, or even when adults try, there's this natural whimper to breathe in a couple times and then exhale. And he says what that does is it helps release more of the toxins within our bloodstream. And I forget the exact words that are used, but it essentially calms down our autonomic system more efficiently. And so for misophonics, this is an essential tool because it is a biological reaction to know this breathing technique. And that's the biological part. The psychological part, even though it's a little Latin, compared to the, to the autonomic system. We're talking about the, the thoughts now is to ground yourself. And so one of the things my counselor taught me was the, you know, the senses technique, you know, what you see, what you like, find something you see, try to find like five blue things, uh, try to hear four, four things, um, Try to touch things. You know, you're ultimately grounding yourself to the present. Grounding yourself helps bring your psychology to the present. Because when we're triggered, we're ultimately reacting.

Adeel [27:42]: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, no, no, no. This is, this is good. So, um, as you were practicing, um, these, these techniques, were there certain techniques that were, uh, gelling for you better or was it kind of like, uh, um, just the, you know, all, all these things, um, working together to maybe help your, your, uh, coping?

David [28:06]: Yeah, I, I keep building. I keep building. I keep listening. I'm fast, um, know so fascinated by the brain now and um i'm reading a book by marcus aurelius you know the guy from that uh 300 movie okay yeah yeah um you know same guy but different movie i forget the name of the movie gladiator i think it was right one of those greek movies great war roman Yeah, and he wrote a book called Meditations, and it's a book about stoicism. But ultimately, stoicism, for me, from my understanding, is about mindfulness and understanding opinions, understanding how opinions can control you. And so one of the quotes by him is like, if you remove... the thought that you have been hurt, then you remove the opinion. If you remove the opinion, I have been hurt, then you remove the pain. So in other words, our biology tells us something's been violated. But that's an opinion. Even though our biology feels that that is an opinion. And what this quote is helping me to understand is I can get rid of that opinion because I know now it's my biology. And because I know it's my biology, I get rid of that judgment, right? Because violence is ultimately a judgment. We think bad thoughts about people, and that's a judgment. And so, man, these things are really helping me. There are so many things that have been helping me, and I think that the book Meditations has helped me a lot.

Adeel [30:00]: That's great. Yeah, that's interesting. I'll definitely have a link to that in the show notes people can check out on their own. Since you've been reading about all this, have you gone back to your family and told them about misophonia? I'm curious if you've tried to close that loop again.

David [30:24]: Yeah, and that's another thing. Misophonia has... again i don't think it does it for everyone but it's it's really affected by relationships and so once again i when i laid these past events with the label of misophonia and how much it's affected everything uh i was able to sort of you know be able to love again and so This past year, man, what a journey it's been. I was never able to tell my mom or any of my family members, as you know in culture, that I love them. But after these events and after being set free, I was free to tell them, I love you. And it's been wonderful. It's been a crazy, crazy year.

Adeel [31:27]: Yeah, wow. So, yeah, so growing up, all that, you know, all the pressures from your family and the labeling with your condition, that's just kind of like, sounds like you create a real distance between yourself and your family.

David [31:48]: Yeah, and people need to understand, like, oh, geez, it's just a hearing disorder. Right, right. No, it's, it makes, and you know, there are different severities of it. People need to know that. Again, when you feel this pain, when you feel triggered and you have, you know, the, they call it your animal brain or your monkey brain, the original part of your brain. When you're triggered and you're feeling that, you know, constantly throughout your life you start labeling people right like I said the judgment and so my sister was judged by me and so that and just imagine that for all my relationships it just ruined and tainted everything and so now that I know what's happened you know it's it's just so nice to have a support system.

Adeel [32:55]: Have they, what was their reaction then when you, uh, when you, you know, kind of came back to them and told them you love them?

David [33:04]: Oh, I mean, my, my older sister is, uh, you know, compassionate in general and she's always been compassionate. So it, it didn't change much, but we, uh, well, she didn't change much, but, the relationship is different and now that I'm expressing my love and joy in her presence so it's just so nice and she read my research paper and encouraged me like wow you went through a lot and that you know you yourself know Asian male like we don't We're not doing it for faculty. It's just a responsibility and just do it. So for someone to say you went through a lot and for me to finally accept that I've been through a lot is a major breakthrough. And so, again, this compassion thing that I'm having for myself has really relieved my seriousness and sort of stupor in life.

Adeel [34:20]: Yeah, well, I'm always interested in how it kind of affects others and how you... especially the one you, we all have kind of realized what it is, you know, in the last, what, anywhere from five to 10 years. So it's interesting how we're, we kind of look back at our childhoods in a different light now that we know what it is and can kind of explain a lot of things in some ways, maybe a little too late, but there's always a chance for some kind of redemption as it sounds like you're getting with your family.

David [34:53]: Completely, completely. And, you know, One of the things I learned a deal in my was speaking with a counselor who serves in the serves with people in the homeless population is one of the questions the students asked them was like, what's a common thread through the people, the people in the homeless population and you know, everybody I guess has their initial reaction. But when he said the common thread is trauma, That really changed my view of things. I read another article, too, that in the prison population, the common thread biologically is brain damage, meaning they have bruises or something like that in the brain. And so again, this misophonia, we're constantly triggered and we have cortisol overload in our bodies, more so than the general population. In those formative years, it's going to affect you. But the beauty of it that I've seen in the people that you've interviewed is that there is hope. Just knowing the label misophonia, is setting people free and knowing that there's people out there that are living with it and dealing with it and finding hope for it is liberating and helping out a lot.

Adeel [36:35]: Yeah, absolutely. You're right. It is liberating. And yeah, it's like that moment when you first realize that it has a name. A lot of people talk about how they're just kind of like constantly up all night researching because it really unlocks a lot of, you know, and potential answers to the past. And then you can definitely be optimistic going forward. Not that you're not going to get triggered, but yeah, it really changes things. And yeah, that's great. And do you want me to talk a little bit about your research, the paper? What was interesting is you were talking about the, how was it, the DSM-5, right? The codes that... that are, I think erroneously, or we all think erroneously are not identifying misophonia yet. And that's come up a lot in terms of like, you know, that could really unlock a lot of doors and take us to the next level where we're, you know, able to get more help as sufferers, but also maybe get more attention for research. Do you want to talk about some of your findings in that paper and kind of what you think should happen next?

David [37:50]: Right. So the most encouraging thing I found was that, um, because of this comorbid paradigm, right, that it's not an official, officially listed, um, psychiatric disorder in the, uh, DSM five, which is the manual, the statistical manual, uh, psychological disorders, the official book that, uh, where misophonia needs to be listed in order for it to be, uh, considered a psychological disorder. Uh, in Amsterdam, because of this, uh, um, comorbid paradigm that says, Oh, you know what? It's just something that's attached to other disorders or that comes with other disorders like a bipolar disorder or, or autism. You know, there's a hypersensitivity and autism. So it's, it's just something that goes along with that. But We know, like, I don't, I'm not, I was never diagnosed with bipolar. I was never diagnosed with autism. So, and all of your interviewees, I'm pretty sure most of them singularly have misophonia. And so Amsterdam did a huge, over 700 participants, I believe, studied misophonia. And they found that there's absolutely good grounds for listing it as its own psychological disorder instead of it being comorbid or attached to disorders such as the ones I mentioned previously. So that's very encouraging because, well, we know we have it. It needs to be recognized.

Adeel [39:44]: And when was that study done by the Amsterdam group?

David [39:51]: Well, the paper came out in 2020.

Adeel [39:53]: Okay. It's relatively recent. There's time for the DSM Society, whoever they are, to take a look at it and finally make some updates. Now, the DSM codes, I've also heard that they don't get reviewed all the time. It's like, what, every 10 years or something? Is that something that we would then have to wait for? Or do you know much about that process?

David [40:21]: Well, you know what's beautiful about the medical community and I guess other communities as well is that often it's a grassroots start, right? For example, the doctor that you interviewed, I believe she started out in Washington that first recognized it as a sound sensitivity syndrome or the four S's. Yeah, God bless her, man. Yeah. Exactly. And so, and you know, the fact that my counselor knew about it, I'm seeing a counselor from betterhealth.com. So it's known on a grassroots level.

Adeel [41:08]: I forget the other doctor that you interviewed, but you know, I've had Dr. Storch down at Baylor, the largest, I think the largest, uh, um, hospital in the country. Yeah. Where I think you're right. It's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's right now it's a grassroots effort. The conventions are very grassroots. Uh, you know, a couple of hundred people show up and we all just talk like, um, yeah, just talk about what's, what's the latest. And it's very, yeah, it's very, um, well. you know, kind of low key and, and, you know, we get the real researchers who are actually coming in. And there's, there's an energy that it's getting bigger, just bigger every year. So I'm hoping this continues. um right getting back to you maybe i'm curious uh you know you say you have a bunch of friends from even going back to kindergarten um well you know what is life like for you now like did it day to day in terms of like uh friendships relationships uh you know outside of the family like just just day to day are you uh um do all your friends know about misophonia like how do you how do you deal with it right so being a you know middle-aged man now i

David [42:26]: So when trauma happens, psychologically, there's a part of you that stays at that instance. For example, for drug addicts, they sort of have this immaturity about them because they started at a certain age and that needs to heal. So for me, there is this sort of reaching back to childhood and growing up from that. So for friends that I've kept for a long time, it's so nice to have, again, that continual support of, amen, I can see that, I can see certain things about you that affected you, and I'm here for you, I support you. But because it, misdiphonia, is inherently, it sounds like you're just complaining sometimes. For example, we all had that perhaps girl or guy in high school or in grade school that just complained a little too much about normal, right? So we can be labeled as that with people that we don't know. For example, in my church community, I'm more careful and more, and even in my work community, I'm more careful to mention it because it's prone to, there's a predilection that it will get labeled as, again, you just complaining a little too much, like you're just being too sensitive. So you do have to be careful about how you mention it. But for people that have touched on the psychological realm and understand trauma, understand disorders in general, have mental health issues in their family to whatever degree, obviously they have more understanding of it.

Adeel [44:24]: Yeah, this is interesting. You're right. As we get older, you know, misfit doesn't necessarily go away, but I think we can become more pragmatic about it. We can kind of size people up and be like, okay, yeah, this situation does, you know, maybe I should not, you know, necessarily talk about it as openly as maybe... another you know more um sympathetic situation where you're around friends who who are more um interested in hearing about mental health issues and so um yeah that's something that that people pick up with age not necessarily as a as a child you know growing up and maybe reacting um Yeah. Yeah. Very, very interesting. Um, so I guess, um, yeah, I mean, we're, we're hitting up, uh, I guess, you know, close to an hour off. Yeah. It sounds like you have a lot of interesting stuff that you've, uh, that you've, um, discovered, um, do your own research and through your, through your, uh, counselor, anything else that you want to kind of share with people, um, that, you know, that you've learned that might be helpful.

David [45:29]: Uh, I think especially for, uh, the younger population that are, that get a chance to find out about misophonia at a younger age because of podcasts like this and, and you know, the grassroots organizations and knowledge that's out there, you know, study, study the brain, study psychology. It's a wonderful thing. It used to be a staple in, in, um, in general studies in high school and beyond. It's good to know about your brain. It's good to know about your biology. And there's wonderful things out there that you can practice to have self-control and live a freer life from the effects of these constant triggers that we're getting. So there's fun podcasts out there. It is, you know, it's a stressful thing, but at the same time, a beautiful thing that can, you know, just like the X-Men or like superheroes, it's both at the same time a blessing and a curse. And so, yeah, I would encourage you to learn about this.

Adeel [46:53]: That's a great point is to try to look at it, try to look for the... kind of the, I want to say the edge, but look for how you can channel it towards something productive for yourself, for others, if you become, you know, if you get into the medical field or the research field, but also lucrative because those fields can also, you know, pay quite well. So, yeah, I think that's a great attitude is just to kind of look for, you know, it's part of you, it's part of us. There's no pill that we could take for it. So, yeah. look for ways that we can learn these fascinating fields that could potentially help, you know, ourselves and each other. It's a great message. Absolutely. Cool. Well, David, yeah, thanks again. Thanks again for coming on. So glad that we could talk, yeah, about all this. And yeah, I wish you well. I'm glad you're, yeah, I'm glad you met that counselor or yeah, some years ago and things are starting to, you know, look better for you.

David [47:58]: Thank you, Dylan. Thank you for taking the time to do these interviews and podcasts. And I love how we're being connected. And it's awesome.

Adeel [48:09]: Thank you, David. I'm glad all your research and counseling has helped you deal with this. And I hope things continue to get better. If you liked this episode, don't forget to leave that quick review or just hit the five stars wherever you listen to this podcast. Music, as always, is by Moby. And until next week, wishing you peace and quiet.