S5 E14 - 1/15/2022

S5E14 - Liz G.

This week I bring my conversation with Liz, yet another Canadian living up in Toronto. We walk about being a misanthrope, someone who doesn’t necessarily like a lot of humans, we talk about post partum depression, other comorbidities, raising a lively son during a pandemic, as well as dialectical behavior therapy.

Dialectical behavior therapy

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Disclaimer: These are machine-generated transcripts and so are not completely accurate. However they will be manually updated over time until they are.

[00:00:00] Adeel: Welcome Liz to the podcast.

Good to have you here. Thank you.

[00:00:03] Liz: Glad to expose myself.

[00:00:05] Adeel: Yeah, that's what it is for the, a lot of people. More and more now. It's the first time they've talked to anybody with misophonia, so it's yeah, maybe we'll start there. Is this is this something that you've we'll talk about your history, but have you talked to anybody else about misophonia?

[00:00:17] Liz: Recently? Yes. No. I was diagnosed only in the last four, three or four years. Yeah. And before that I just thought I was nuts. But I even learning what it was in that. Sense of relief and having a name for something and knowing that it's not, I'm not being an unreasonable person. I didn't really, and I still don't actually trust telling people about it.

But I have recently in certain therapeutic settings started to discuss it and I have come across maybe one other person who has it and knew what it was and one other person who had learned about it from somebody else that they were providing therapy for.

[00:01:05] Adeel: Ah, gotcha. Okay. Yeah, just all interesting stuff.

It's yeah, we'll get into that at first. Maybe if you know where, whereabouts are you? Toronto. Okay. Toronto. Okay, cool. Yeah. used to live at Young and Lawrence very briefly when I was on a co-op term when I was at Waterloo. I grew up in Ottawa Oh. Obviously been in Toronto many times.

Okay. Okay. And I guess what do you do up in Toronto?

[00:01:25] Liz: I am a single mom of a five year old boy. , and that's pretty much it. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I unfortunately I've got a whole lovely list of diagnoses that I could go into, but I'm on disability.

[00:01:41] Adeel: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah.

You mentioned you you'd been in therapeutic settings that sounded like they were not necessarily mis related. No, not at all. And this, a lot of us have kind of comorbidities with other things. And okay. Yeah. So I guess maybe do you want to let's start, maybe start back to early days for you, for Liz?

Oh, thank. when yeah, when did you start noticing that you were so sensitive to sounds? I

[00:02:07] Liz: have tried so hard to figure that out and I have

[00:02:10] Adeel: no memory. We're gonna use the day and the minute that ,

[00:02:14] Liz: I have no memory of not being honestly. , I know from the people that I've heard in your podcast they can usually pinpoint moment.

The one distinct memory I do have of a physical reaction to it is, and I understand this is relatively common for people with misophonia are different versions of miso kinesia at the same time. And so I cannot handle repetition in any form. So somebody's saying the same thing over and over, or watching the same thing over and over.

And so when I was about 14 or so, I don't know if you might be familiar with a program called Spitting Image. Yes.

[00:02:56] Adeel: Yes. Can you remind me what that is again? This yeah, that's, was it a British show that was a Yes. Satire or something. Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:02] Liz: Yeah. And I used to love that show.

Anyway. There was this absolutely ridiculous song on that show, and I was trying to copy down the lyrics, so I had to keep rewinding and going back and rewinding. And so the, it was repetitive. Yeah. And I noticed before I even got to the end of trying to copy the lyrics, I had to run to the washroom and vomit.

Wow. Yeah. I could not handle the repetition , and that was probably the very first physical response that I had noticed to this problem. Yeah. But as far as identifying sensitivity, I've always been, as far as I can remember both in sound and in certain visuals and tactile experiences. I don't know, a time that I wasn't.

[00:03:49] Adeel: Gotcha. That's interesting cuz a lot of people developed the miso esia stuff later on. I, I think but for you, everything, all your senses were were bothersome or sensitive? Pretty much right from the beginning. Yeah. Interesting. And you probably never, sounds like you never stepped foot in a techno club or house music

[00:04:06] Liz: Actually the only music that does it to me consistently is country music. And I had never understood why I hated that music so much until I was diagnosed and I'm like, oh. Cuz there was actually a day that when I was doing my undergrad, I walked into the lab and somebody was playing a country music cd.

And without even thinking this, like I just totally reacted, walked up to the thing, ejected the cd, it snapped it in half. . Wow. And of course, the owner of the CD looked at me and I was like, never like country music in here when I'm here. And then I just handed her the two pieces of the CD .

[00:04:50] Adeel: Wow. And now your best friends?


[00:04:53] Liz: she she wasn't upset by it. I think she was probably more frightened. But

[00:04:57] Adeel: yeah. So she was not upset by it. Okay. A little bit frightened, obviously. Yeah. Surprised.

[00:05:02] Liz: So probably more speechless than anything else. Yeah. But we never, it, it was never brought up again after that.

But even I, of course, was stunned after I realized what my action was, cuz it was just so instantaneous. I wasn't. ,

[00:05:18] Adeel: very few of us act out at all. So that's interesting. Were there other situations that you have acted out? Cause that was like , you're in college, so you're, you've gone through all your kind of earlier years where it's tougher for kids to verbalize or process what's happening.

[00:05:33] Liz: Funny enough, I don't think I did. I probably, like most of us, where we hit a breaking point and we yell for people to shut up and be quiet and whatever. But I don't recall any other moments specifically like that. I do know that I was really hooked on this one television show.

It was Sherlock Holmes, the one that starred Jeremy Brett. And any time that I would put that on, nobody in my home, in my family was allowed to come into the same room. because I could not handle any other sound and I would actually chase them out. So they got to know when they heard the show, to just avoid the living room.

[00:06:19] Adeel: Oh yeah. I'm sure they got that . Wow. Okay. And I was like, what was it about the show? It was that just it was just happened to be a show that didn't have triggers and you were just

[00:06:28] Liz: yeah, I think that's it. Like everything about that show I could focus on and immerse myself in and actually thinking about meson, one of the things that I've, I realized as my coping mechanism is music.

I very much immerse myself when it comes to music. It's the sound, the lyrics. Everything. And I never realized until recently that I was so deeply affected by it. And now I think that's where my brain goes to relax, to get to avoid any other sounds. ,

[00:07:00] Adeel: are you a musician as well? Sorry? Are you a musician as well?

[00:07:05] Liz: I wish . ? No, I'm not.

[00:07:07] Adeel: No that's that's fair. Just a lot of miso phones tend to have a creative bend, so I'm just curious if if you are also a musician and maybe that we could use, I don't know if you use that as therapy, but immersing yourself in music is a great form of therapy.

Oh yeah. Or a great way to cope. Okay. Okay. So this is who what were your first triggers of after the spitting image? Was there also, the canonical chewing sounds around the dinner table also?

[00:07:32] Liz: Not quite so much the chewing sounds. Although I guess at times it's that, that smacking sound.

Yeah. Yeah. But for me, it's what I've always referred to as organic sounds, somebody coughing, clearing their throat, sneezing. I instantaneous rage, I wanna choke them. , , I don't know, I know has that degree of experience with it, but yeah, it's, it tends to be those particular sounds.

Coughing, anybody coughing, sneezing, sniffling. Yeah. Any of those sounds.

[00:08:06] Adeel: Yep. I understand that. Interesting. And and was it, so how was home life then? Were you constantly on, on guard or trying to avoid family members?

[00:08:13] Liz: I think I was really just more constantly difficult to deal with. I was a very angry person.

. In fact, I was thinking about this recently, the high school years with the raging hormones and whatever else going on. There's the teenage angst. I don't think I was so much angsty as angry. and yeah when I think about the meson, I now know why. The other thing that I've really wondered about a connection was I've been in Misanthrope as long as I can remember as well.

I actually cannot stand humans. And I think that's also connected to the Meson because there is not an animal sound that I've ever experienced that bothers me. Oh. Or a sound in nature that bothers me. It's human creative.

[00:08:55] Adeel: Interesting. What about, I'm curious about if you're out with other humans, like in a very rural setting.

I'm wondering if it's this has come up on, I dunno, at least one or two shows recently. Just the idea of just a lot of people around in modern. And just modern habits. I'm curious if maybe that living in one of the biggest cities in the world. Yeah. I'm curious if if part of it is I don't wanna say the, overpopulation, but and just the intensity of a lot of people around you.

, if that is a bigger, big factor and if, or, and if people bother you as much, if you're out in cottage, kind of Ontario cottage country, .

[00:09:26] Liz: People bother me no matter where I am, but yeah. Yeah. What I could say about that is one of the things I noticed in my personality type, and, I can link a lot of these things if I just see her sit here and think about it.

But I have a very strong personality. My, my personality enters a room before my body does , and I'm not kidding. I've been told this.

[00:09:49] Adeel: What's an exa Yeah. I'd love to hear some some examples of that. I'm sure a lot of people can relate. Yeah.

[00:09:54] Liz: I am one who is really entertaining to other people, and I have always found that I don't like people, I don't like crowds, but I do love an audience.

And I think the reason for that, if I could link it to misophonia, is that I am then in control of the environment. So I'm okay with being around crowds and that sort of thing if really I'm the one who's the source of the focus and I'm the one dictating what's going on in the environment. Otherwise up until I had my son, I always immersed myself in music when I was out anywhere unless I was, out in nature.

So I would have stuff blaring pretty loudly in my ears, so I couldn't hear anything else. Yeah, that's really

[00:10:43] Adeel: interesting. I feel like I've myself and tell me if any of this relates to you, but myself and some people I've talked to refer to ourselves as sometimes extroverted introverts where we just feel like I'm definitely naturally love to just be on my own.

And so that's been the one good part of quarantining. But I do making jokes in comedy and having, making people laugh and getting that reaction. And I wonder if that's part of it where I when I'm with a lot of other people, it's more it's, I feel better if it's like I'm entertaining people and seeing their reactions, but then I immediately wanna, after the event, just kinda wanna retreat and be by myself and immers myself in music.

Yeah. There you go.

[00:11:20] Liz: Yeah. People's laughter very rarely triggers me. There's some of those really weird laughs out there, but Oh yeah. Those are rare and they're few and far in between. And yeah, I think, that, that sound is comforting for me.

[00:11:32] Adeel: The but the, yeah, the control theme definitely comes up a lot.

, that's really interesting. And so then so then when you were coming up, like in school and whatnot you was it, how was school basically being in, in high school and whatnot? How, obviously you sounds like you ended up in some kind of a research capacity. You probably did pretty well.

[00:11:50] Liz: I have a master's in molecular academia. Yeah. There we I loved high school. In fact I often sink into those memories and just enjoy those. I was a straight A student. and I was also, considered gifted. I was in the gifted program. Oftentimes I would find I know a lot of times they will link behaviors of really bright people to being bored.

Which eh, I guess is part of the time. But again, if I link it to the meson and about me being in control again, I can remember certain scenarios in different classes where I would initiate something again so that I was fully in control. Especially in my English literature class, I would get into fights with my teacher.

We would have full on arguments about Shakespeare. And everybody else in the class would just sit there silently. I don't know if they were dumbfounded or, had no clue. But that was how I engaged. and it worked very effectively for me, . But there were times for example, in one of my calculus classes, I was telling somebody recently, I, I kept finishing things for the teacher or correcting what he was teaching.

So he was starting to get frustrated and a little overwhelmed. And so he would send me for walks during class. And just tell me to just go for a walk. And I went to a Catholic high school relatively rigid. You were not allowed to be seen in the hallways during class time. So there were always teachers in the hallways, walking around looking for any rogue students, but they never bothered with me.

They'd be like, oh, you got sent for a walk, didn't you? So I was quite well known in my high school. But like I said I enjoyed high school thoroughly.

[00:13:37] Adeel: Gotcha. And how about situation with friends? So did, do you have a lot of friends because , be, you're, I say ,

[00:13:44] Liz: I guess I did.

I could think of sp specific individuals who would've been like my closest friends. And of course there's the whole clique life throughout the high school experience, but I never fit into a, I was cross click. I always just socialized with everybody. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:59] Adeel: Yeah, I, that's interesting.

I was crossed as well, just the gifted down to the I don't wanna say down, but it just Yeah. All the different groups. Six . I was always like pseudo gifted. All my friends were gifted, but somehow I must have not tried on the test or something that day in grade five

But anyways, the interesting yeah. Okay, so yeah. Yes. You had a lot of friends. You enjoyed the challenge. In, in high school. The thing, you're in a, in school, you get to focus. I think that's one thing that's important to us is the ability to focus. And so if you probably if you're in an environment where you can't focus, that's good for us in a way that doesn't distract us.

[00:14:31] Liz: Yeah. I don't know if I would say that my particular high school was conducive to , an environment that allowed you to focus. But like I said, I tended to create my own environments.

[00:14:40] Adeel: Yeah. You took control of the the con the discussions with your

[00:14:44] Liz: teacher. Exactly. The reason I found out that I ended up in a gifted program in high school was it happened, it happens through teacher referrals.

So there's no testing or anything like that. The teachers just observe things about you in the class and next thing they're referring you for a gifted program. And I was referred by two teachers. One was my chemistry teacher because I would literally finish his sentences in class. And the other one was my computer science teacher.

and that was because he could never get me to sit in the chair. I was always laughing, literally rolling around on the floor. , I just didn't take that class seriously. So I guess he figured I was so bright, I was bored.

[00:15:24] Adeel: Interesting. Okay.

[00:15:26] Liz: But I just, yeah, that's funny. Friend in there who was really funny.

[00:15:30] Adeel: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. All right. And what were your at home like? What were your parents your, they're obviously noticing this. Are you, are they noticing specific?

[00:15:39] Liz: Yeah. I don't know if anybody honestly observed anything to this day. I have never spoken to a single relative about this.

Ah okay, gotcha. Yeah. So I still suffer in silence at home. Yeah, again, angry kid, so probably just chalked it up to me being an angry kid.

[00:15:58] Adeel: Yeah. Did you have siblings as well? Did you have any reference point brothers?

[00:16:01] Liz: I have two older brothers. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I can't think of any particular experience where they would've identified that I was being irrationally ir enraged by a sound like it's not something that I think anybody would've picked up on.

I have started to wonder if perhaps my father actually has a form of it himself. But I haven't spoken to him about it. Th this kind of falls into the area of why I don't trust people around this, because the reason I don't typically share it with people is I don't have an appreciation for sadistic curiosity.

I do on my part, but not on others. For somebody to be curious about what this is, because obviously if you don't have it, you have no idea unless somebody's. Exposed you to it, right? . So for me to explain it to somebody, my concern is always, are they going to want to test it out? Yep.

And yeah. Exactly. And I've had somebody else who I talked to about this the one other person I met who had it, and she was very familiar with that particular part of humanity where it's like, they don't believe it's real, so they wanna do all the things to trigger you .

[00:17:21] Adeel: And maybe, or if they believe it's real, they don't, it, it doesn't click that it's serious.

So they feel like, oh, just something I can,

[00:17:28] Liz: yeah. And so I prefer it to avoid being exposed to those triggers because I do always, I have actually had physical responses. Number one, I don't want to start throwing up on somebody . And. I'm never 100% certain that I will maintain and control my rage because, I snap that person's cd.

Yeah. And the desire to literally put my hands around somebody's throat when they cough is so strong. It's torturous to fight that all the time. So I don't tell people about it so that they don't have an opportunity to test it.

[00:18:02] Adeel: Yeah. That's the dilemma we face. It's I don't know anyone who has who at doesn't have some level just of exhaustion of having this stuff tested or dismissed when you try to say something.

So at some point we always, basically the older one, the only we get, we are the kind of less likely we are sometimes to bother telling people cuz the, the odds that something undesirable is gonna happen are pretty high. And so it's like why bother when you can just leave? . Interesting.

Okay. So yeah, high school was great. You got into college. And then how was college? Was that kind of similar? Obviously you have a master's, so you were rocking

[00:18:37] Liz: I went from high school to college to university and then another university. Yeah. But yeah college was a great experience.

I don't really recall being triggered in any specific setting other than the usual. So if somebody came to class and had a bit of a cold or something, yeah. They were probably people who I sat as far away from as possible. But that's also because, I think it's disgusting that people wanna come share their virus anyway.

So to my benefit. I may have actually snapped at people at times who like sneezed and said, shut up. But it happens, . Yeah. Yeah. But for the most part, no, there's nothing specific that I can I did enjoy college a great deal. I got very involved in student politics and pretty much retained that right through.

Yeah. Okay.

[00:19:30] Adeel: Okay.

[00:19:31] Liz: I think good a good way to channel the anger that people create .

[00:19:35] Adeel: I was gonna say yeah. In the, in, in your debates with your English teacher and political debates that's the great place to maybe use your, use the energy that that we have and channel it to something, at least more productive.

I definitely found that out. Yeah. Yeah. So then then yeah, getting into the real world. Did things start to get really. Bad. As there's often like a initial period of kind of a honeymoon period where we're out, out in the world on our own and can make more decisions for ourselves in terms of our environment, but then things start to get bad as we go into our work environments and whatnot.

Yeah. How did that arc go for you for Mrag?

[00:20:08] Liz: It really just stayed the same. It I pretty much plateaued until I had a child and then everything went bananas. But as far as work environments go I ended up in a few different environments that I would not have predicted I would get into, but they are in areas of research and there were a couple where I was alone, so I was in complete silence and in and loving it.

There was, my last job was in a political office and it was a small political office, but. , I had to share with two people and there might have been a few times where one of them may have sniffled or something and I would just throw an item in the room, . Okay. They wouldn't know.

I didn't throw it at them. It was just, yeah, like a reaction. So I was just like, throw a pencil and then get up and go get it. Just something to distract myself. Ah. There was actually, this is, now that I think about it, I really wonder, there was this one individual that I worked with in my first job when I was like 17, 18, who I could not stand.

Now I cannot recall if he was triggering me in any sense of sound, but I used to throw stuff at him. Like I threw a stapler at his head once I was so irritated with this individual and he had no idea.

[00:21:26] Adeel: Wow. So what did he do? The staplers coming at him? Maybe? Did he hit him in the head or was

[00:21:30] Liz: it interesting?

No, I missed him and so he just walked over and picked it up and he didn't even look at me. It's I don't know if he knew where it came from anyway, .

[00:21:40] Adeel: Oh yeah. Just, it was just happened to be the, it's the, yeah. Just a stapler flying through the rim. Yeah. I

[00:21:45] Liz: guess it's common. Yeah. Yeah. I worked in a retail space , I don't know how common you should expect that to be when you go shopping

[00:21:52] Adeel: Okay. Interesting. All right yeah. So yeah, seems like it, you Yeah. You'd plateaued. Yeah. yeah. Cause then what happened that you had a a child was your child tr like triggering you or was it just on this stuff?

[00:22:04] Liz: Very interesting part. , I gave birth to my son and three weeks later developed postpartum depression.

, but I wasn't diagnosed until he was six months old, so , I pretty much suffered right up until, yeah. That, and that's a whole other problem, all on its own. It's almost like you don't exist in your own body. You're not in your own head and so I think during that time, I didn't even have me use a phon, to be honest.

Like I, my brain wasn't with me, I remember at one point when I was speaking to somebody about it probably when he was about maybe eight months older and they had said, wow, you have a baby, like way to go with Meson, you're gonna get treated nonstop. And I had thought so too, and it didn't happen, and rationalized.

it's a survival thing, right? You need to be able to hear all the sounds that a baby makes to be able to tend to them. And so they don't come across the same way.

[00:23:03] Adeel: They don't come across as a threat, which I think is what no. All other sounds

[00:23:07] Liz: seem like. Exactly. But I can tell you I've said this to a few people several times, that Covid will kill me and it will not be an actual infection.

It will be the fact that I was trapped in my home 24 7 with a five-year-old with a lot of energy, and I have meson and as a five-year-old does, they like to make sound and so , as he has gotten older, I have found it harder and harder to tolerate his sounds. Fine. When he was a baby and he needed my help.

But for example, I have two Guinea pigs, and I never knew this until we got Guinea pigs, but Guinea pigs have Seven to 11 different types of sounds that they make to communicate. It's fascinating. And I like hearing all their sounds. He tries to imitate them. I don't like that. Ah,

[00:24:01] Adeel: again, you're the nature versus

[00:24:02] Liz: Yeah.

And so the moment he starts doing, like one of the sounds that's very common is called leaking. And this is a sound that Guinea pigs make when they want a treat and it sounds like, right? Yeah. He tries to imitate that squeak and I just want to smack him in the head . So I'm usually trying to find some space in my home where he isn't audible, but I live in a Kentucky apartment and that doesn't really happen.

[00:24:33] Adeel: So are you, I'm assuming you probably try. I've tried ways to ask to get him to maybe not make sounds and I have, or maybe.

[00:24:41] Liz: Thought about trying to actually communicate this openly with him to get him to understand. Yeah. I haven't found the language yet to talk to him about this. And so unfortunately, because it's that zero to 100 rage there's almost no space in between the sound and my reaction.

[00:24:59] Adeel: Excellent point. Yeah. You don't, the, when you do think about it, it's not the time. You're not in any condition to talk about it yet.

[00:25:06] Liz: I'm usually trying to if I have any energy left in me, I will try to redirect and distract him so that he just stops doing it.

But more commonly, especially in since Covid I'm just like in a permanent state of irritability and so usually I'm just like, stop doing that. Just stop it. , right? Yeah.

[00:25:28] Adeel: Yeah. So he gets that a lot. How do, how does he reaction to that? Is it he obviously knows you're not doing any kind of malice, but I'm wondering if you think about the tone maybe that, that's something I think about too, that my case I have triggering, right?

And it's, we all have for very, whether it's our children or, family growing up or friends or partners. But yeah, there is that kind of guilt and shame that like we carry it with us. Yeah, it sounds like you've thought about it

[00:25:54] Liz: as well. Snap at him then. I feel horrible after because it's like he's not doing something intentionally do annoy me.

Although I do believe there is an element in a five year old boy that is sadistic I, or looking

[00:26:07] Adeel: for, curious about the reaction or,

[00:26:10] Liz: I refer to him as my little researcher. And so that's exactly it, right? Like he sees that there's a response he wants. To see if there, if it's consistent, he wants to see, if it's him who's causing it.

It's that part. I and the thing is I can't not have an appreciation for that being a researcher. ,

[00:26:27] Adeel: I was gonna say maybe you're researching him, researching you, and then it's a cycle

[00:26:31] Liz: in a sense. I, because there are times where Oh, I'm absolutely fascinated by his ability to turn anything into a game just to waste time.

I'm like, wow, there is no way anybody enjoys life as much as this kid. He could make every single moment into something fun for him.

[00:26:52] Adeel: Yeah. I'm, you have

[00:26:53] Liz: to admire that.

[00:26:54] Adeel: That irritates me. Yeah. That's something yeah. Anyways, continue. Sorry. Yeah. I

[00:26:57] Liz: do wonder if he has, Some sort of a sensory sensitivity disorder.

For example, and I know I'm gonna sound like a horrible parent here, but he has to vacuum his room once a week. Yeah. Five year old, vacuuming his room. But he wears sound soundproofing, like earmuffs when he vacuums. And he is really sensitive to when the vacuum is on. If I have the vacuum on, like I turn it on without warning him first so he can go and cover up his ears.

He freaks

[00:27:27] Adeel: out. Gotcha. Okay. Are there other sounds as well, like motors and

[00:27:31] Liz: Loud sounds for him? Yeah. So yeah, motors definitely definitely none of the ones, I don't see him reacting to anything that triggers me, but there's definitely some sensitivity there. And there's actually been certain.

Body movements that make me think that perhaps he has a tactile sensitivity. Ah, okay. Yeah, because it's like, it's almost like he's responding to being irritated by like a tag in a shirt or something like that. So yeah, I do observe my kiddo .

[00:28:00] Adeel: Yeah. No, it's part of your nature. Part of our nature as Mrs.

Phones we're, we were aware of our surroundings, but also obviously you're a a researcher, so Yeah. That makes sense. Oh, and what about I, I guess maybe also like relationships as, you've as you've gotten older, has it affected that in your personal life

[00:28:19] Liz: and friends?

Yes, definitely. Cuz I know this happens with a lot of melophone that. , it's the ones you're closest to that annoy you the most. They trigger you the most. Yeah. In relationships, definitely. Any sneezing, coughing it's get outta the room. So yeah, definitely. Usually I will get out of the room because it's okay, you're sick.

It's easier.

[00:28:42] Adeel: Oh, that too. Yeah.

[00:28:43] Liz: , you're, you're sick. And it's making me angry. This is obviously irrational, but the one thing that really stands out for me again, is that problem I have with repetition. And with a partner you may have those brainless moments where you're just like, say, stroking somebody's arm.

And it's a repetitive movement. It's supposed to be intimate and affectionate, but it makes me wanna vomit. And I'm like, stop, just stop touching me.

[00:29:08] Adeel: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, so it's a lot of bodi. So obviously foot shaking, leg shaking, and rocking those kinds of things. Very much as well as the touching.

And so the repetitive touching, is it is it the actual tactileness as well, or is it just the repetitive aspect of it? Yeah.

[00:29:26] Liz: Yeah. Okay. You can, I love, I'm actually a very tactile person. I love massage, but if I went and went to a massage therapist and they focused too long on an area, same thing.

I gotta find some word to vomit, so

[00:29:40] Adeel: move on. Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. So vomit. Vomit, obviously. Yeah. You mentioned that one, one time you'd vomit. Is this, do you do this common? Like it happens pretty often?

[00:29:49] Liz: It doesn't happen often. I get nauseated pretty quickly. Nauseated,

[00:29:53] Adeel: okay. Yeah.

So you, you have that warning sign that something's gonna happen. Yeah. ,

[00:29:58] Liz: so Gotcha. You, it's okay, no, you're making me sick. I have to get outta here.

[00:30:01] Adeel: Okay. Okay. Interesting. And that on top of the I want to, kill you ,

[00:30:06] Liz: basically. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'm turn between, throwing up on them or smacking them.

[00:30:12] Adeel: Yeah. You wanna smack them first before you throw up on them so you don't get dirty yourself. So safe masks. Yeah. Yeah. So in, oh, also, I guess another rough thing about wearing masks in this day and age, you don't, you wanna make sure you're not triggered, you're not vomiting your mask.

But that's let's maybe I'll delete that visual from this episode, but let's switch gears. Maybe talk about , therapy. You said you've been in therapy settings or recently. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? Was that sure. Yes. It doesn't sound like it was about misophonia, but it, maybe it was about the postpartum.

[00:30:40] Liz: It was a hundred percent not about misophonia. It was definitely about the postpartum. And the interesting thing which I would be even more fascinated in researching if it didn't have such a detrimental effect on me, was in the process of trying to establish the appropriate medication.

Cuz brain chemistry is virtually impossible, right? It's all guesswork. So in trying to figure out the right drug for me we ended up kicking in an a, a high anxiety what's the word I'm looking for? It just killed all my inhibitions. I had no impulse control on this one particular medication.

and I developed a gambling addiction. Wow. As Wow. Yeah. And so I have been in therapy for the postpartum depression, and I have also been in therapy for an addiction, . And what I have discovered in those settings is that these professionals have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to misophonia.

And that can be, at the very least, irritating, annoying, but yeah, more so disheartening and distressing because when you have somebody who's life goal has been around learning all about the brain and all of its intricacies, and then you tell them about this and they look at you like they don't believe you because they haven't learned it in school.

and somehow you're just making crap up. It should be unreasonable. Like it really borders on me wanting to call a college of physicians and surgeons on some of those people. But , like there was , a particular psychiatrist in a program that I was doing online. And this is actually a program for co comorbidities with addiction.

So it was perfect, but Right. Just going through. And then of course, thank you to Covid, everything is on Zoom. So going through this Zoom therapy meeting with these other people and having them discuss their experiences was triggering me. That by the time they got to me, I was about to throw up.

And I guess however I communicated, I don't know at that point, but I came across like I wanted to, I don't know, I thought everybody was an irritating juvenile or something. I don't even know what I had said. I just know that I was contacted later on by my individual therapist because of course, the facilitator of that group contacted them and expressed that somehow I was inappropriate

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. I don't even remember. Like it, when you're triggering me to that degree there's a point where my brain will shut off because otherwise what's gonna happen? So it's almost like I go numb and I don't recall actions at that point or anything I say.

[00:33:40] Adeel: I think I know exactly what you're talking about and I'm sure most listeners do.

It's yeah, we, yeah, it feels like a brain shutdown. We just want to get out there. We say whatever, just to that's, let me get to the, let me go 10 minutes in the future or whatever. It's . Yeah. And forget I'm even here.

[00:33:54] Liz: Usually if I reach that point, even though I don't recall what I say, there's a part of my brain that's definitely functioning well.

I'm generally quite articulate and I can be pretty venomous . And so yeah, it's a default for me if I'm triggered to that extent that what comes out of my mouth is going to be offensive.

[00:34:15] Adeel: Yeah. It's the Jekyll Hide switch .

[00:34:18] Liz: That's exactly, so needless to say, I'm not in that therapy group anymore because it's almost impossible to benefit from any form of therapy while being triggered all the time. And actually there's a misophonia support group I had found on Facebook recently and I was reading some of the, this one is just for people defend and one person was asking, they. are an addict. They were, I think, going through some program and same problem.

There was somebody in there who kept snapping their gum and this person had tried to explain it. But then, you're with other addicts and their mental problems. So catch 22. No idea how this person is surviving through that particular program. They probably need to seek some other form of help,

[00:35:09] Adeel: but, and when you told your therapist did the word like anything come out of that?

Or was it just that's whatever

[00:35:16] Liz: that had anymore? Yeah, because when I said it to the psychiatrist who was facilitating at the time, and he obviously had never heard of it, so he was crazy. He was one of those who I was getting no sympathy from. It was just like you, they have behaving,

[00:35:33] Adeel: , they have entire goddamn like bookshelves of books about every possible condition.

And like this always seems to be the one that no one seems to. Get or even want my

[00:35:42] Liz: acknowledge honestly, no, muon is in the dsm.

[00:35:46] Adeel: It's not actually, it's not at least not an American one. No.

[00:35:49] Liz: Seen it here. Okay. Because I'm like, of course, it's an immensely huge textbook, but, if this is your specialty, this is a brain functioning thing where, what are you learning?

Aren't you guys supposed to keep up to date all the time in your career otherwise, yes. Stagnate, but whatever it, the interesting thing was I was diagnosed by a psychologist and yet that same psychologist's colleague that I was referred to for a D B T program did not know about misophonia. And I was having to teach her about it, and it was like, but your colleague was the one.

[00:36:28] Adeel: Yeah. It's hit or miss. It's so hit or miss. It's, it really is, unfortunately it's, this is not un an uncommon experience just being yeah. Ping ponging between therapists and 50 50 chance, if they've even heard of it. Yeah. And the, and you spend your entire 50 minutes explaining to them

[00:36:43] Liz: Yeah.

And pay for it. They learned about it in the first place and was diagnosed with, it was purely incidental because that was, I was seeing that psychologist for the postpartum depression

and just in conversation, what really stuck out for her as I was expressing different experiences. I brought up the one about spitting image and the vomiting, and she's sounds like nasal phon. And so she started exploring things with me.

[00:37:12] Adeel: So before, so that was the first time, this was pretty recent in the last five years that you've yeah.

That you've even, you had a name. Okay. And that's when you must have been relieved. Did you go home and just Google all over the place? ?

[00:37:23] Liz: No, I didn't actually. I was relieved that there was a name for it, and I gave me the impression that I'm not the only one with it. But I was really even today he's five years old I still have postpartum depression because I was diagnosed so late and so treated so late and so at that time where my brain was, I wasn't into research.

[00:37:44] Adeel: Ah, gotcha. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense. And and then so were you, it sounded like you then went on me medication, obviously one of them, at least one of 'em was not a good path. Did you try other medications for things like postpartum?

And I'm curious like, yes. Did you notice any of these having an effect on your misophonia. So with it, good or bad I'm

[00:38:03] Liz: just curious. I went through about three or four different medications for the postpartum, and oddly enough, of course, the first one that we started me on was the one we just stuck with in the first place and stopped toying around with it.

. But as far as the meson, I can't say that I noticed. No, that's not a hundred percent true. I did discover that Putaine had such a fogging effect on me. Like I was just almost incapacitated, like I could have slept constantly. But yeah, that definitely I was way more sensitive to sound because I was constantly irritable at having to be alert or awake.

So yeah, that one definitely did it to me, but I, as soon as I noticed that it was doing that to me and making me so groggy, I. I came off it within two weeks. I was like, don't forget this. I can't, because with the postpartum depression, it was actually making things dangerous.

[00:38:59] Adeel: Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Okay.

And then, yeah, so yeah, so those weren't, wasn't really working. What happened? I guess your other coping sounds like music is a big one. Immersing yourself in that, but you can't always do that with a kid around, .

[00:39:11] Liz: In fact, that's one thing I definitely noticed after having a child was the relief that I sought and would find in music.

I couldn't and I actually had more of a discomfort around immersing myself in music, out of a fear of missing something.

[00:39:29] Adeel: Missing something. With your, with my child. To talk to your child

[00:39:32] Liz: with. Yeah, exactly. So it became this I can't do that cuz I have to be listening all the time.

I haven't, up until recently, I hadn't been able to enjoy music for I guess about five years.

[00:39:43] Adeel: Okay. So up until recently, now that now he, maybe he's a little bit older, you can get back into that a little bit.

[00:39:49] Liz: Yeah. Now I'm forcing my tastes on him yeah.

[00:39:51] Adeel: Yeah, I we do that too.

Isn't only so much yeah. Wheels on the bus that we can handle, exactly.

[00:39:56] Liz: And those songs are

[00:39:57] Adeel: competitive I was gonna, so yeah, I was gonna say like the whole baby shark and wheels on the bus and all that stuff, it's all the whole point is rep repetition.

[00:40:06] Liz: And actually that's another area where my son has triggered me in.

It's just so strange. This is very common for kids that, they see one show or one movie or one story, and they, for a level of comfort, they want that repeated again and again. That's how they learn. And. So my son has two bookcases full of books and he has become obsessed with the Nat Geo for kids books that he's received over the last year.

And there's one or two of them that he keeps pulling out every night for me to read to him. And I'm like, okay, this is starting to make me sick.

[00:40:45] Adeel: Gotcha. I only laugh cuz we have the, we have, yeah. A bunch of natio books. The Weird but True books and

[00:40:51] Liz: oh, these are the little Kids', first big book of those things are amazing, like the information fascinating.

And my child runs around talking about tectonic plates and people stare at 'em like he's an alien, but . Yep. I can only hear that same thing coming out of my own mouth so many times.

[00:41:08] Adeel: Yeah. Yep. Interesting. Okay. And yeah, Yeah, we're already getting close to . I don't think we're already getting close to an hour.

I do want, I guess the one I also hear about maybe it sounds like you haven't talked to your any family member about it. What about friends? Okay. We talked a little bit about friends. I'm curious about how did you meet people with misophonia? It sounds like you've met a couple.

[00:41:28] Liz: Have you It's a therapy group.

One of them is actually it's a parenting therapy group of peers and I was explaining something about a recent experience cuz of course with Covid and whatever, I'm trapped 24 7. Now he's back in school, so I'm like yeah. During the summer it was killing me. And so I was exp I was telling them about something, describing that and.

just as soon as I said Meson. I, of course I usually ask, are any of you aware of this? And one of them said, oh, I have it too. And so then we just started relating to each other. And in another therapy group, it was the same thing. It was another parenting group actually. And I, again, had asked, I said, I had Meson had to explain this experience I had, and I said, does anybody know what that is?

And one of the facilitators was like, yes. I have learned about that because one of my clients had it. And so I had to learn it. And I'm like congratulations. Thank you for learning it. I'm like, most facilitators, but . Yeah. So that's the only way that I've come across it. I did actually venture far enough to post from the Meson website.

I've forgotten what the name of it is now, but the one that hold the, is the organization that has the conference and everything. Yeah. Ms. Funny association. Yeah. Yes. So they have a story posted there that was written by a high school student that describes the experience of misophonia that she had.

Yeah. And I found the description was really eloquent. think it explains very well for people who don't get it. And so I posted that on my Facebook and I don't have a huge number of friends on Facebook at all, but I have the, the people that I want to communicate with. And one of them responded and I didn't say anything about it being about me.

I just expressed that this is well written. I think it gives a very good idea of this particular disorder. And my friend wrote back that how difficult this sounds, and he just gave me the impression that he thought maybe I had it. So I did tell him, and he was actually very empathetic. He's a friend I've had since high school. , and I think it explained a lot for him. ,

[00:43:41] Adeel: about you? Or or, okay. So he didn't have it, but he was, he, you reached dad and he was like, oh yeah, I remember you. Yeah.

[00:43:47] Liz: He was a good friend in high school. Yeah. And like I said, I was angry. A lot of people were actually frightened of me to some degree.

The nickname Psycho. I did hear from time to

[00:43:56] Adeel: time. Okay. Okay. Liz, the

[00:43:58] Liz: Psycho. Yeah. Just because, I was so reactive. Yeah. So yeah that's as much of an attempt as I've made to inform anybody. I guess I was testing the waters there, just put that out there and see what reactions come back.

And that was the only one. Yeah. And nobody else said anything.

[00:44:17] Adeel: Yeah. No, that's interesting. Yeah, it's a, it's not uncommon, it's, we're at that phase in the what I call the arc of wokeness around misophonia, where it's like in any one group, there's like a, a. , there's a chance that one person will speak up about, or one person will get, will reach out and hope, hopefully hopefully more will whoever's suffering in silence at least and gonna get more get help or if at least find our community.


[00:44:40] Liz: Coming across your podcast and the association like that was the big aha. I can go here if Yeah. I'm really wanting to communicate about this or to hear about other people and otherwise I just keep it to myself.

[00:44:55] Adeel: Yeah. No that's not a, not uncommon.

Yeah. In the last few minutes, is there anything else you wanna, want to wanna share with people who are listening about tips or just mad message for people who might be suffering?

[00:45:06] Liz: I can say that for sure. D B T skills, so dialectical behavior therapy.

As much as, , I have been in various forms of that for other reasons. Learning those skills is probably one of the best ways to figure out how to cope with misophonia, especially the distressed tolerance skills. Cuz you know, you end up, for me personally, I end up in a state of crisis very quickly because I'm trying to fight fighting somebody.

I don't try not to do it, the D B T skills when I mentally access them, are probably the most successful way to cope I find. So if anybody is trying to find something, I would say look into dialectical behavior therapy.

[00:45:51] Adeel: Yeah. I'll have a link it in the chart notes and stuff and, gotcha.

Gotcha. Cool. Yeah, Liz, again, thanks. Yeah, we covered a lot a lot. There's always there's a lot of messages from parents wanting to know how they, how they deal with it from, of themselves, but also with their children's. This is, I know this is gonna help a lot of people, so I appreciate you, you taking the time to, to get into that and sharing your story, because we don't get to hear about it enough.

Yeah. , snapping everywhere. Every episode's un staffing, but . But but yeah. Hearing, because you're right. We, there's a lot of guilt and so it's, I think it's re at least it's re reassuring to people that, it's ev a lot of people are struggling with that kind of how they what they showed their kids so

[00:46:29] Liz: well.

I would say that any good parent walks around with a good supply of guilt for a variety of reasons. There's enough things that we're always worried we did wrong with our kids. That's what, you can use to help. help you realize you are a good parent. Yeah. This is just another one of those things.

But again, D B T skills, particularly in distress tolerance, are very effective. Also mindfulness. Mindfulness skills. Yeah. If you can focus in on some other sound or sensation and use that to distract, it's very effective.

[00:47:06] Adeel: Gotcha. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Thank, yeah. Thanks again, Liz. This has been great.

Thank you. Thank you, Liz. Always get to talk to another Canadian and so many from my home province of Toronto, of Ontario, I should say this season. If you like this episode, don't forget to leave a quick review or just hit the five stars or wherever you listen to this podcast. You can hit me up by email a he hello mis appoint podcast.com or go to the website mis appoint podcast.com.

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