[00:00:00] Adeel: Chelsea, welcome to the podcast. Good to have you here. Thank

[00:00:03] Chelsea: you. I'm excited to

[00:00:04] Adeel: chat. Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah, why don't just want you to let us know where you're located.

[00:00:09] Chelsea: Yeah. I am from Oklahoma, but I recently moved to Houston, Texas. So I am adjusting to that. But loyal Oklahoman, so that's where I'm at . Gotcha.

[00:00:21] Adeel: Okay, cool. And yeah. What do you do what do you do for a living?

This is obviously it's gonna tie into the misson a little bit, I think. Yeah.

[00:00:27] Chelsea: I am a marriage and family therapist. So I work with my own practice. It's called Grace Christian Counseling. And I see individuals all online through zoom, essentially, kinda like what we're doing now. I see individuals, couples not a ton of families, but help with family support.

I love doing work with people who have chronic illness or disabilities, which obviously falls into the misophonia realm which was not my initial pursuit in counseling at all, but where obviously my path landed me.

[00:00:57] Adeel: So actually I gotta ask just to confirm, do you have Misslin yourself then?

Yes, I do. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. And yeah, I was just checked out your your Instagram and then obviously your website before. We got on and I saw, yeah, I mean you have a whole section on obviously all these, the other conditions, but misophonia is like front and center and you have a whole post about misophonia and talk about your approach.

Yeah. That's interesting. So have you, has misophonia always been part of the practice? Does it sounds like No. I think you just answered my question probably.

[00:01:27] Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. So I initially went into the counseling field to work with mostly teenagers and I ended up totally doing that, but I started having symptoms of misophonia when I was in high school and it really didn't progress to a point.

Now it's pretty bad where it affects nearly every aspect of my day. But in high school it was just a few different triggers. I didn't have a name for it, didn't know it was going to end up being such a disability or an illness for me. But as I have evolved in the triggers, daily life just got harder and I suffered with a few other chronic illness as well.

And so that's reading about the other chronic illnesses that I suffer from started helping me connect the dots between, though a lot of people don't see Estonia as a chronic illness, it shares a lot of the same symptoms with struggles as an illness or disability. And so that's when I started bridging the two together.

A lot of things that I did for my chronic illness actually helped me manage my dysphonia, and so it just all came together in that way.

[00:02:31] Adeel: Ah, gotcha. Okay. And interesting. And yeah, maybe let's just go back to high school and we'll lead up to everything you're doing now, but so you start, yeah.

Start to notice it around high school. Would you say it was a pretty typical kind of origin story, high school's usually a little bit later than when a lot of people noticed it. I'm just curious kind of what was going on around that time.

[00:02:52] Chelsea: Yeah, I had a lot of. Family issues that were difficult, stressful really chaotic.

And I never would've connected misophonia in that. I still really don't know what I think about all that. But that definitely was a high stress period in my life, and that's when the first triggers started. I had no idea that it was misophonia. I thought it was just a pet peeve. And I don't know, are we able to share certain triggers or do we stay away from that?

[00:03:19] Adeel: Oh yeah, no you can share 'em just, don't like, make the sounds, but okay. But yeah,

[00:03:23] Chelsea: you can get . Don't worry about that. Yeah, so my first one, I, the earliest memory I had was just, I don't know. A lot of people might still be on Twitter today, but Twitter was a big thing back then. And I just remember having a ton of tweets. I'd be sitting in class and I would just have these rageful tweets about people chewing their gum and it would just send me over the edge. And I just thought, and people knew, that was just a huge pet peeve of mine. And then after that, it was more so I had to have the TV on when eating with my family.

And I did not have the ability to articulate, I don't think, what was going on for me. Obviously I was a teenager but I just, my family knew that it was, I liked to have a TV on because I didn't wanna hear people too. But that of course just escalated as time went on. I still keep that part of my life pretty private from my family.

Their initial responses, weren't super validating or encouraging. I felt crazy. I definitely picked up that vibe. And of course they had no idea how to label it either. But. That definitely is when it started. And then as it's progressed, it's something that I really struggled with shame and guilt.

I'm sure like all we all do. So learning the balance of, now obviously I promote it on my business yet a lot of people personally don't know that about me. So that's been interesting. Delicate balance kinda getting away from your initial question, but that's no, this

[00:04:40] Adeel: is, I like these kinds of sorry.

No I totally follow it. I totally follow where you're going, so No, this is great.

[00:04:46] Chelsea: Yeah, so that's probably the earliest memory. I, like you said, you asked, how it's progressed over the years. Now I would say there's, like most people, a multitude of triggers that have developed since that point.

So that's what led me on the journey to, I've done a lot of, especially being a therapist, doing a lot of research and figuring. The oranges, origins of this, the treatment options, all of that stuff. So that's been the last couple years. And then I would say this last year as I started working with chronic illness and disability, and I'm sure you sell it to my website, but leaning more towards acceptance and not acceptance in the fact of I'm just gonna give up.

This is how it is. But not trying so many control strategies and making it my entire world has really helped me find a lot of freedom from just the negative emotional consequences of Miss Ponia. Definitely doesn't change my triggers but it does help me, I think, cope overall with just how I perceive my life and how I perceive myself.

And that has obviously helped me just manage and have a better mental health overall, even though it's still, only seems to get worse with time and age, which is scary. But I've found through different avenues I'm sure we'll talk about just ways to not let it totally ruin my quality of life.

Yeah. Yeah. No,

[00:05:54] Adeel: I definitely want to get into those avenues. But yeah, I was listening to what you were saying from early on. I just wanna want to clarifying a few things. Yeah. Cuz it was Yeah. Super interesting. Every aspect of this. The did the, and then the tweets that you were talking about was that you were firing off tweets?

Yeah. About Okay. Or I wasn't sure if that was that or the tweets, like tweet sounds were bothering you or whatever. Oh, yes. ,

[00:06:15] Chelsea: yes. Makes sense. I didn't, yeah. To clarify, I would just be arranging 16 year old tweeting out the world how in

[00:06:21] Adeel: class, and then all your classmates are like, they're getting notified and they're like

[00:06:25] Chelsea: what's going on?

I, that's the goal. Or, the death scare that we all give people that they don't notice.

[00:06:29] Adeel: Yeah. That's, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. That's the very internet passive aggressiveness that I totally understand. Yes. The people right next to you are being tweeted about. Okay.

Yeah. Obviously guys yeah. Classic kind of the stories in terms of family chaos happening and it did was it particular family members that were triggering you or did it start at school and then they get into the house?

[00:06:51] Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. So dinnertime, I do remember it being two particular family members.

, one person didn't really seem to bother me too much that, that has changed. That person has now developed some things that of course bother me. But early on, I remember it being basic table manners, but of course, it was, many people have very strict dinner manners. But yeah, something that I thought was like obvious you don't talk with your mouthful.

And certain things like that were my initial ones. And since that moment, it's been a lot more it usually of course starts out as with one thing and then evolves into several different things and just one trigger. And , it's expanded to more triggers with those two people and then eventually expanded to all family members doing different things.

That kind of bothered me.

[00:07:36] Adeel: And did you follow this career path due primarily to misophonia or was it an interest in psychology in general?

[00:07:43] Chelsea: Yeah, it was really just an interest in psychology in general. I, like I said, I had a chaotic family situation at the time. , and I think that definitely led me to pursue that degree.

I also had just always really struggled with anxiety and depression. And of course they always joke that therapists get into this field because they're trying to fix themselves and families, and that's very true, . So I think that's initially the triggers at the time they were, they. weird and hard for me, but they were definitely not life altering and I, so I didn't think about it a lot.

Yeah, of course that was triggered. And it really, even in undergraduates, I didn't struggle all that much in class, in classes, which I know is a huge struggle and I really don't think I would be able to do that today in the state I'm in now. But luckily in my undergraduate classes, there were times I was definitely annoyed and frustrated, but I just thought I had a hard time focusing.

I didn't know that it was this disorder. So I wouldn't say it was until grad school that really I started, I had, I started getting a name for it. I started having a hard time focusing in class with certain classmates. It was a really small program. It was only eight of us, and it was like all day for several days of the week.

And so people would eat in class. You were just confined in very small spaces and that's when it definitely became much more of an issue. So as time got on, grad school is when it really started impacting me and I still did not really. Understand or do a lot of research on it. And it wasn't until probably three years ago where it was like really impacting my everyday life at work, at home in relationships.

And it only just progressed from there to where I had to start, rearranging my life. And that's when I started thinking about how I could use that struggle in my therapy world and help people in that realm.

[00:09:29] Adeel: Yeah, no, almost fortunately, you were equipped to, to think about how to start handling it and obviously even better to help other people.

So let's yeah, maybe, we'll, yeah, why don't we talk about like how yeah, let's talk about how did, how was it starting to impact like work and family life and stuff? What were some of the, I don't, do you remember, do you have any like cringey moments that when Oh, ,

[00:09:50] Chelsea: yes. So I actually worked at.

It was like considered a call center. It was a suicide crisis line. so it was, as you can imagine, a call center. There's just lots of different people with not a lot of barriers. So you're all just in a room answering the phone. And it was 12 hour shifts. And so once again, a lot of times people would be just sitting around and eating and that really became a problem.

So we did have to wear a headset, but of course when I didn't, when I was on a phone call, I still heard things around me and I would have to turn the volume up, of course, all the way. And I couldn't wear headphones because I had to be present on the other headset. And , that is when I started really struggling at work.

People eating of course near me, and then people typing, we're all on computers and we're documenting like crazy as the calls are coming in. And so a lot of people pounding on their keyboard. And then just being in close quarters with people in the cars as we're traveling to different homes and meeting with people.

And so that's when I sought out more specific help for misophonia. So I had gotten in contact with the audiologist who did the hearing aids that do the white noise. Oh yeah. Like the white X and those things? Yes. Yeah. I always figured they're called. So that's when I reached out for that. And I, that was a big step.

I was like, I feel so incredibly embarrassed. There's no way I'm ever gonna let anyone know that I'm wearing these hearing aids. That feels like next level crazy. Was very shameful about it, but the audiologist was like, you can hardly see it. And that was a big reason I wanted to do it, was because I couldn't just.

I felt uncomfortable wearing headphones. But with the hearing aids, I felt okay, that's one discrete way of helping me get through a mealtime or get through work. I can put the hearing aids in and then my headset. And that helped a lot. But of course I just felt so much shame about it. So it just, it got, gave me a lot of anxiety even though it was supposed to help relieve some anxiety.

Yeah. Was

[00:11:34] Adeel: this shame from just how it looked or other aspects of shame and guilt? Yeah, it's gonna be my next question. ,

[00:11:40] Chelsea: kinda. Yeah. That's a great question. I think because of the family environment and how they initially responded to it, I, not that they ever said I was crazy but it was, laughed at minimized eye rolls, like just, get over it.

Yeah. That's weird. And so I think that I just felt a lot of shame about Misson in general and then. The hearing aids felt like, oh my gosh, like I'm using hearing aids for this issue. That's not even really an issue that I should just be able to get over. That's weird. If I was deaf and needed hearing aids, like I don't think I would question it at all.

But it was just the fact that it was a hearing device would block out noise where I felt like, okay, this is not legitimate enough for me to have to wear hearing aids. So I don't know why so much shame and guilt got wrapped up in that. I've, I wear them all the time now and I still don't really tell, I tell a handful of people, but I wear the hearing aids to family dinners and they still don't know

And that's is something I'm still working through. Cause I, I'm sure you read I think sharing it with safe people actually can break apart a lot of that shame and guilt and bring a lot of comfort and relief. And so I'm still working on that with. Safe people. And hopefully eventually I will get to a point where I can share that more openly with my family.

But I'm not sure where it all came from. I just know that it was very ingrained in me that I, something was wrong with me if I had to do that.

[00:12:57] Adeel: Yeah. And going back to, I didn't mean to suggest that being shameful for how something looks is I didn't mean a question that I figured that Yeah.

Be, but a lot of other things. But I didn't mean, I don't wanna make it sound like I was just asking if you were shame before how it looked, but but yeah, but obviously, yeah, guilt and shame and so yeah, let me, let's talk a little bit about that before we get into kind of Yeah. Your practice now the, obviously we all share that.

I share that especially with, family members growing up and what and whatnot. Was you said you don't tell a lot of family members like the family that you were, that you grew up in, they must at least know they know that you had symptoms. Do they just not talk about it anymore?

Or do you just not. bring it up. Have you told them about the term Ison? ?

[00:13:36] Chelsea: I'm trying to think. I know that through time, I don't know if it was my mom or my sister, I know that they've sent me an article and been like, wow, this is specific for you. And I'll be like, yeah, that's what I have .

[00:13:47] Adeel: But they're just, but they're just dismissive about it or joking about it.

Yeah, it's

[00:13:51] Chelsea: actually happening. That's when it's like eye roll. Yeah. Not really thinking about it. And part of that is not their fault at all. I have not been super on the vulnerable side. When I was 16, I would, more so just. Leave the room or kind of lash out on Twitter? I never, now that I'm older, I think I probably have more verbiage to be able to describe it.

This is a disorder. But I would say my family background also they're not huge emotional, vulnerable. , pro therapy kind of people. And so having more vulnerable conversations, even if it's something not misophonia related is hard. And so I think that's why I've stayed clear just because we stay surface.

And so part of that is, my choice and my responsibility of recognizing that they don't have probably all of the knowledge and tools to be able to help me. I haven't given that to them. Yeah.

[00:14:37] Adeel: Yeah. And not at not everyone. Yeah. Is easy. Not everyone has an easy time talking about that stuff or is used to talk about that stuff.

And yeah, you're right about like safe people, like a lot of us especially as the older week. , yet we've had so many bad reactions that we almost at some point just don't even bother mentioning because it's the odds are that it's not gonna be positive. So Yeah, absolutely.

Why don't we just why don't we hightail it out of there, but and then also obviously compounds and then that's adds to the shame and guilt. It's it's not making anything better. Would you say with your fa did you have siblings as well?

[00:15:09] Chelsea: Yes, I have a sister. Okay.

[00:15:11] Adeel: And un And do you ever think back and feel like, yeah, are they maybe, do you feel like you have some distance that maybe other family members don't have between each other? That misophonia maybe caused a little bit of a wedge?

[00:15:22] Chelsea: Yeah. I think as I get older I fear that happening more because I tend to avoid certain situations.

I, I definitely would say I lived with my dad after graduating for a time and he traveled for a living, so he wasn't home a lot. But when we were home I would stay in my back bedroom and I would feel horrible because I loved my dad. I wanted to spend time with him, but it was just too much for me. Some of the sounds.

And I just couldn't bring it to tell it to him. And so I've definitely let that be a wedge where of course he probably was like, why is she always in her back bedroom? . So I think situations like that, and then of course when I'm thinking about, making plans with someone, I try and assert a little bit of control, like where we're going, how long I'm gonna be there.

And so I definitely feel like there's missed opportunities to connect with people at times because I am cautious about putting myself in triggering situations, which sometimes means that I'm not spending time with people that I love. Yeah.

[00:16:17] Adeel: Very co common patterns with friends as well. Like how has it maybe affected like the friends you choose to be around or choose to have?

[00:16:26] Chelsea: Yeah. So I, being a therapist, I think I really appreciate more vulnerable relationships. I'm not a very surface level person I think that's been helpful in some instances where I do have several really close friends who I have felt comfortable sharing with over the years. I still am working on when they're triggering me, I don't tell them, which is a problem.

Okay, so they

[00:16:47] Adeel: know you have misophonia. Yes. But then in the moment it's like you just Yeah. Try to wait for all of us, like we, we just feel let's, let me just wait it out or get through it or deal with it. Some non confrontive way.

[00:16:59] Chelsea: , right? Yeah. And I, that has been like, I'm a therapist and I'm preaching to people to.

to share with safe people. And then here I am, only being half truthful. And there are some friends who I know that may be certain triggers I do. And so if we're not in the moment and they're asking me about Miss Ionia, I will mention okay, this is a trigger. This is a trigger. And they don't, I think, recognize, they're not cognizant usually that's them doing it.

But I do have, this is one of the, one of the things you had put on the post was like a memorable experience. And I have a friend who is just above and beyond supportive. And she, I was fearful of going over to people's houses. I didn't want to be stuck in a situation where I wouldn't have a way out.

And so I told her about my misophonia and I, was planning a visit to see her and she. I already have everything planned. We're not gonna have anything crunchy. I'm gonna have a fan on in the background. My husband, like we, he knows about it, which was fine with me that she shared. And she was like, we, like I have a sound machine.

Like she was like above and beyond did things that were just so sweet. And it made me, I was never triggered at her house. And that was a really memorable experience of hey, if you're open with safe people, they will do their best to love you well and accommodate you. Hopefully depending on the person.

But she's also a therapist and so I think that helps. But it was just so memorable. Cause I think sometimes we can get so caught up in like how every experience is gonna be negative and how every person's gonna respond poorly and no one's gonna understand. And that was a moment that kind of combated some of those negative beliefs I've had and has given me more confidence to other friends to say Hey, do you mind if I come over if we do this or we do that?

Or I tell them, Hey, I'm really anxious about I know it might sound crazy, but like the sound issue I have, I'm just worried about spending excess time there doing this, and people have been really receptive to that. Yeah,

[00:18:48] Adeel: no, it's easy. Yeah. Like it's easy for us to get very pessimistic.

Pessimistic or just nervous about every situation and still seem the worst. But yeah, sometimes if you, if somebody at least even tries a little bit, it's like enough for some, somehow to calm our bodies down and be able to get through. But yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's powerful to hear that even, even the best therapists can struggle with it.

So yeah, maybe we wanna talk a little bit about how, as you, how you start to incorporate it into your practice and what are some of the avenues? I know you have some, unique avenues that, that maybe not every therapist. Uses because cuz of the nature your practice yeah.

You wanna talk a little bit about how it's informed your practice?

[00:19:25] Chelsea: Yeah, so I, like I mentioned earlier, my practice is called Grace Christian Counseling, so I definitely market more towards the faith-based clientele, though I see people on a big spectrum of that and don't necessarily limit myself to that.

But my greatest coping, I think of making sense of my suffering with misophonia and the other areas of my life that I suffer. I my faith is a huge thing I draw upon. And so really making sense of misophonia in the context of my faith is really hard for a long time. There just didn't seem to be any redemption from Miss Ionia for me.

It only seemed to ruin my life, not bring any positives cause I'm sure a lot of people could share in that sentiment. And so as I was working through the other issues I mentioned but I suffered from, I started evolving. I think my theology and my theology of suffering and what our purpose is here on this earth, and a lot of those questions led me to just an acceptance in a purpose that I can find within Ms.

Sapone. And so I know that will look so different for each person. But so that's one part of, I would say my practice is helping someone work through whatever theology of suffering, not necessarily through Christianity, but like whatever your theology is, but helping make sense of that. Because obviously that's the framework that you're going to have in any area of your life when you're trying to make sense of something.

And so whether it's SPH or a relationship problem, you're always working from some kind of framework. And I really pull that in. But I also help people with just it's more coaching honestly. Because we both know there's not a. Treatment per se, for Meson at this point. So I try to be very clear about that, don't have the answers to get rid of triggers.

I just help people find ways to manage their life and have a quality life despite having triggers. And so a lot of that looks like creating boundaries for themselves. And and not being ashamed of those. So for me, that's like a friend invites me to go to dinner at a Mexican restaurant. I say no.

I crunchy chips. Yes. Don't want that. Love you hate the chips. Just so chicken wings

[00:21:25] Adeel: would be a bad place as well? Yes.

[00:21:27] Chelsea: Yeah. Yes. And honestly, it's every place, there's probably something , . So I've just found okay, if I. Three things in the evenings that week, that's just too, are rolling for my body.

And so if I can take care of myself in other ways, if I'm sleeping well, if I'm eating well if I'm exercising well, my ability to cope with the triggers seems to be a little bit better. And so I've just worked on, I help people figure out what self-care routines and boundaries they need in their life.

And so those boundaries can be physical, they can be emotional, relational, spiritual. A lot of stuff comes down to communicating with family and friends or employers about your needs, advocating for your needs. And then of course, it's a lot of grief work. I found. There's so many losses associated with misson.

The loss of normalcy, the life that you had hoped for or thought would be easy. The fact that there is no cure, that's hard to wrestle with. And so grieving and comparing to. I'm, almost 30 years old. Comparing myself to other people in the things that they can do that I can't do because of misophonia.

It creates obviously a lot of envy of other people. A lot of sadness, depression, anticipatory anxiety. So just working through all of that. And that's more of where becomes coaching, but also therapy of all the byproducts of misophonia. So the anxiety that you experience in depression, the hopelessness, all that is definitely stuff that can be worked through.

That doesn't mean it's eliminating symphonia, but it just means it's managing your life in a way that doesn't feel so hopeless and overwhelming. Yeah, that's a fascinating

[00:22:57] Adeel: aspect. I saw that on your website about the grief and loss aspect that I wanted to ask you. Yeah. Specifically about what types of, because it's not just, when you see grief, you always automatically losing some someone losing their life.

But there's all these fear of missing outs and aspects. And depression and wondering if this is ever gonna get better. That yeah, that you don't hear about as much as a, as something that needs to be taken care of. Apart from just the, trying to get over the triggers.

That's really interesting that you blend that in as well. Yeah, because we talk about comorbid, we usually talk about comorbid conditions in terms of just being in parallel with the misophonia. But the misophonia can cause a lot of this stuff too if you're constantly being worrying about if it's gonna get worse or that I'm not, participating in life is the way I could.

So that's really interesting.

[00:23:43] Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely found that when I was reading material about chronic illness and some of the chronic illness stuff I was facing I started recognizing that, hey, these words are really encouraging to me. in the realm of misophonia, even though they're definitely not talking about that.

They're talking about these other issues, but I realize it's so much would apply to the situation. They talk a lot about inre or in chronic illness and disability material just how much loss is associated with that and how it is a grieving process because you might not be able to do the same activities that used to be able to do.

You might not be able to get down on the ground with your kid and play with them the way that you want to. And I was like the same thing for misson. You may not be able to sit at a table with your kid like you want. You may not be able to go to the parent-teacher conferences. It's like you want, there's just so many things.

I know a big fear of mine is getting pregnant one day and just hearing so many people talk about how that really escalates their. And that's a fear and that's a grief to work through of okay, is that, I'm not gonna have a normal pregnancy. I'm not going to, my kid's not going to grow up in a normal, quote unquote, if that's even a thing, environment because of this.

And so there's just so much that I think parallels with other chronic issues that a lot of people, there's not a lot of research for Misson and there's not a lot of support for people with Misson. And so I think a good way that I have found support is by reading things of chronic illness or disabilities.

Cause it is so applicable to Misson.

[00:25:06] Adeel: What are when you talk about a grieving process for Misson, what are some of the things that you, that are, that are part of that process?

[00:25:12] Chelsea: Yeah, so I think initially, a lot of times, especially counseling and especially in the Christianity realm, the message I think people get sometimes is just to , pray more, have more faith, get over it. And I don't subscribe to that . So I think the first thing I do with grief work is just having a safe place for someone to talk about all the things that they're frustrated by, helpless, hopeless, that they're grieving. And I think even giving someone the language that it's grief helps, a lot of times it just feels unfair and it feels frustrating to watch other people.

You're just becoming envious of other people. Other people don't seem to understand you. They don't get how hard it is. And I think if you can put the word grief to that and help them realize that they're not this horrible person who's, not empathetic, but they're going through their own grieving process, I think that usually helps people a lot just to have a word of recognizing what's going on for them.

And then having a, of course a space for someone who gets it. Like I of course have misophonia. And so clients, they hopefully, feel that sense of shared feelings of what comes with that when you're struggling from the same thing. Even another therapist who might not know about it, it's just creating a space that you can process and grieve.

Whereas a lot of people, if you weren't up to a coworker and told them you were grieving because you had misophonia, they wouldn't understand. They wouldn't understand all the losses that come with that. And so I think just having a place and a space where it's okay to feel angry or to feel hopeless or to be anxious about what that means for your life is so healing in of itself.

[00:26:42] Adeel: Yeah. I find it weird as strange, but nicely strange that, that when you talk to someone else it's totally different. I feel talking to somebody with misophonia because you feel like you don't have to like, retell them every little detail. Like they, they already know. Yeah. It's like we've walked in each other's footsteps cuz our, a lot of our situations are so eerily similar.

, and. And yeah, I, I think yeah. That's a great just giving people a space to get it out. Cause we've bottled things up so much as I'm sure you . I know. Interesting. Do you wanna do you also wanna talk about about the faith aspect in chronic illness.

I'm sure there's I know faith-based thinking tr tries to answer the question of or people try to ask like, why did this bad thing happen to me? Is that something that comes up when you're talking about faith and misophonia? I'm curious how you maybe not answer that, but just discuss that question or explore that.

[00:27:27] Chelsea: Yeah, that is a great question. So I have my kind of own theology of how I've come to that. But when I do, so I'll answer that question personally. And then, yeah. When it comes to working with clients, I help them explore what that means for them. So that doesn't necessarily mean that they're gonna come to the same shared understanding or theology that I have.

But for me, it's helped me make sense of that, was really asking myself the question of, okay, what do I really believe this life's about? If I believe that it's to ultimately know the Lord and honor him and glorify him, then what does that look like in my suffering? And initially I would've said I'm doing a horrible job because I am isolating from others.

Lashing out at others, I avoid any kind of, service to other people because I'm terrified of my reaction. And so for a while I struggled a lot with, my theology was I'm supposed to be serving, I'm supposed to be faith-filled. I'm supposed to be doing all these things and be gracious towards people.

And I just, my body couldn't do that. And so I felt like a huge failure to God and to other people. And like I was totally failing that mission and through a lot of counseling myself. And I am married now and my husband has helped me a lot to have a better theology of that. Now I ask myself that same question.

What do I really believe this life is about? And I still believe it's about honoring and glorifying the Lord. My definition of that or how that looks, I think is very different. All throughout the Bible there are stories of the Lord using people who are really broken and who have nothing to offer, and that those are the people he delights in using.

And so I think for a while I had a really negative, harmful Christian belief system that told me that it was only worth something to God if I could produce something for him. And I realized that's actually not the gospel at all. And I, think about, okay, how can I honor and glorify the Lord now with my limitations?

And I've come to an understanding that the Lord uses he, he delights using people that have weaknesses limitations, because that's ultimately way better than someone who's just self-sufficient and pharisee and sees no need for a savior. So that's helped me a lot. And also just recognizing.

If I believe that life is about honoring and glorifying him, then it's really not about my ultimate happiness and my pleasure from earthly things. And so having a more eternal perspective has really helped me cope and get through each day and have meaning to the misophonia. I know that if I didn't have this issue or the other chronic illness issues I have that I would not be dependent on the Lord at all.

And do I, that's a whole other question, that people come up with next. But I know that for me, that is the only thing that is actually sustaining to me. I could have nothing in this world, but as long as I have the hope of Jesus that I can clinging to, that is enough for me to be able to get through each day.

I think that ultimately that kind of perspective attitude is more honoring and glorifying to God than if I were just doing a bunch of self-righteous acts. And so that is what's really helped me figure out okay, ultimately this life is not about just how happy I am. And, some people might, that might be their theology and that's okay.

But for me, my theology is not about just how I can get through this life and be the happiest and how I can get from everything and everyone have the best house, have all the money, have the best marriage, have all the great kids. I don't think it's necessarily about that. And so that's really helped me when I, especially I struggle with envy.

When I look at other people and how easy their lives seem and how careless and I get really frustrated. I'm like, I just want a day where I don't have to worry about that. And it's not fair that misophonia causes so much depression and anxiety within me, and I can get really down and out quick if I go down that loophole.

And so when I have the framework and the mindset that this life is. Should be about pleasing me, that's when I get really stuck. But when I shift my gears and remind myself what I actually believe this life is about, that helps me, I think, push through a little bit more in those difficult times.

Wow.

[00:31:16] Adeel: Yeah. Fascinating perspective. Yeah. No that's really interesting. Yeah, and not just on a misophonia level. Yeah, you're right. The whole, envy is a whole other, I'm sure there are many podcasts about that, but, and that's not getting any better with everyone looking at each other's needs or whatever.

I feel like that's exacerbated in the last 10, 15 years. Which, which is interestingly coincides with one more with the term misophonia being 10, 15 years ago. I think that's a coincidence, but I'm sure for folks who are feeling guilty and left out, that's probably not helping.

Correct. And interesting. Yeah. And, yeah. Yeah. I like your perspective on thinking more on an eternal level because a lot, yeah. A lot of us just getting, kinda get bogged down in the moment. So anything we can do to think about, think more broader nothing helps kind get our heads Stu unstuck.

Yeah. Have you, why ? Yeah. Go on. Sorry. Yeah, no, go ahead. Yeah, no, I was gonna ask outside of therapy have you have you met, I know you don't talk about it that much, but have you ta, have you met other people who have misophonia, whether it's friends or people on the street or,

[00:32:18] Chelsea: yeah.

I don't know if other people run into this, but, and I think the more I've understood Ms. Pony, myself, I done a better job of describing it, but initially when I would tell people, other people would be like, oh yeah, I have that too. Or, yeah, me too. I can't stand 'em.

[00:32:33] Adeel: Yeah. Then do you feel ever. Feel a little skeptical.

[00:32:36] Chelsea: I feel very angry . Yeah. When they do that, I'm like, you have no idea. I get very frustrated and that's probably why I sometimes stay clear of even saying anything. And now I, when I talk about it, I say I have a neurological disorder that put certain sounds, put me in a fire flight response.

And that of course sounds very different than oh my gosh, I have this thing, or I hate it when people eat chips. It makes me mad. It drives me crazy. Like that obviously changes the dynamic in the flow of the conversation than the latter. So yeah, I think the way that I have started describing it to people has helped.

But I do, there have been several people in my life who have been like, oh my gosh, yes. I can't stand that. And I have decided that like you. I think misophonia can be on a spectrum. And so I think some people probably have, more pet peeve like tendencies versus a full-on neurological disorder if we're deeming it as that right now.

And so I think that's been a little hard. I had a good friend who would say that and she'd be like, yeah, I totally get it. But then she would be able to totally sit through a dinner at a Mexican restaurant and not flinch. So I'm like, I don't know that you really understand what that means.

[00:33:41] Adeel: Some people might not have that particular trigger but yeah, I know, right? Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I not to question anybody's Mrs. But I've had, yeah, I've been in job interviews where the interviewers is trying to relate and they're saying that they have oh, I think I have mild misophonia.

And I'm like, Ugh, this, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna last at this challenge. Yeah, I can tell right now, but cool. Okay. Interesting. And and so I guess what are, do you have any . So despite all this, so you said your misprint is getting worse and worse seems like it's getting worse. Do you have any other are your coping mechanisms mainly like your I guess you got the Y X or whatever your your equipment that you have.

Do you have any other kind of coping mechanisms that you do? Like how do you at home, like how do you negotiate your boundaries and whatnot?

[00:34:22] Chelsea: Yeah. Great question. So I got married about a year ago, and I was absolutely terrified for what that would mean for our marriage.

[00:34:30] Adeel: Could you, could I break it into ask did you tell him, like, when did you tell him that you had missed phone?

[00:34:35] Chelsea: Yeah, that's a good, that's a good story. So I was definitely afraid of telling him. And so I held off for a while. When we were dating, I would sit through dinners and just be holding back tears. And then he told me after a few minutes of dating, he told me he loved me. And I was like crap, he does not, because the minute I tell him this, he's gonna go running.

And so I was like, this is the time that I have to tell him. And so the next day I sat him down and I was like, listen, I haven't told you this and I think it's really gonna change things. I don't think you are going to love me after this. And I think, having a relationship and getting married is something I definitely want.

But I know it can rak havoc on family members' lives, and I just need you to be prepared for what that means. And that was another memorable moment I wrote down in preparation for our time chatting, because that is probably one of the greatest moments I've ever felt fully seen and known and so loved and accepted.

He was beyond gracious and was like, Chelsea, this is. Something you can't control. This doesn't sound crazy at all to me. We'll work through it. I'm so honored that you told me like, what can I do to help you? What I will do anything and everything to make you feel comfortable when we're hanging out.

And that meant to be absolute world. And it took me a long time to take him up on that and be honest with him when I was triggered. But he, when he knew about it, he could then tell my reactions and was like, oh, am I bothering you? And then he would immediately change his behavior, but through just him changing his behaviors.

And then of course, always when I'm having a really down, out moment and feel really terrible about myself, or we're in a situation together in which I'm triggered, he leans over and holds my hand or squeezes my leg or says, do you wanna go? He's just beyond supported. And so leading that question into how, my coping strategies now I luckily, I know I'm so fortunate in this department because there are people out there who are not nearly as understanding and sympathetic.

But my husband is a great coping strategy and he just does anything and everything to make lives bearable in our house. And so we turn on a really loud fan from our events or of events when we eat. If he goes and even just puts one little small thing in his mouth, he turns on that van. He learned how to literally swallow differently.

When we got together, I could not stand the way he swallowed and I didn't, I could not tell him for the longest time. Cause I was like, this one is something that you can't change.

[00:37:05] Adeel: You can't change. Some people have a, an yeah, some people have an unusual unusually audible. ,

[00:37:10] Chelsea: Yes. I'm like, how I, that just sounds uncomfortable,

So I was really convinced that there's just no way he could change that. But I finally, one day I just looked at him and I was like, , you swallow so loud. And he was like, oh I didn't know. And then he worked on swallowing and I kid you not, I could not hear him swallow anymore. So there are things that you think aren't changeable, can sometimes be changeable.

So I would say, to answer that question, I do bear the hearing aids. I have every headset you could imagine for different situations. I am on an antidepressant that does not get rid of the triggers, but helps my overall mood and ability to cope. That has been a godsend. And I, that's what, six plus medications for me to find when that worked.

And so that was a really long process. And giving hope to anyone out there who's tried that hasn't worked for them. It did take me a long time, but has been really helpful. And then I started working from home. So my, my practice is completely virtual. We live in a one story house and so I don't have to worry about any steps or anything like that bothers me.

And then another one, I just read a lot of books about suffering and hope in the spite of suffering. And so that usually helps me just be grounded and having a good perspective day in and day out as well.

[00:38:20] Adeel: Wow. Yeah. Very multi-pronged approach there. Yes. That's, that, that's really interesting.

And I was gonna ask you something again, but I totally forgot cuz there was so many interesting things. Oh yeah. The yeah, some people have talked about how they take medication now. Some people have said that they'll take something and they'll stop cuz it kind of numbs their feelings and then they don't feel like it's worth it.

It sounds like you tried different things and until you've landed on something, that was good balance for you? I'm assuming or are yeah. Or are there any side effects that you still question?

[00:38:49] Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. I have struggled, I mentioned this early on, but I had struggled with anxiety and depression from an early age, even before Sepon.

And I had been on medication for that reason for many years. And not, side effects, and I didn't feel like it was that helpful. And then when I got married that's really the leading up to the wedding was when I was just under the most stress. I felt like I was developing a new trigger every day, and I had been off of an antidepressant, and so I was like, you know what?

I feel like I've tried a million at this point and nothing works, but I am so desperate I need something. And so I reached out to my doctor told them I had already tried. I I think this was the first one, after the other five. So a couple years in between getting on this one. But.

It did come with a lot of side effects. Initially I was really nauseous. I still struggle with some side effects with it as well. My stomach is not quite right which is really uncomfortable at times, but my overall quality of life and mental health is better on the medication. And so I'm already, pretty scared for the day that I have to get off of it when I get pregnant.

And it's not an approved medication. And so knowing that myson gets worse for most people in pregnancy is already a little kind of daunting to know that's not gonna be something that I can put in my tool belt for a while. But it has been something that's been really helpful. So

[00:40:06] Adeel: talk about the yeah.

Pregnancy aspect of it. I've heard, and from my own experience at least not, obviously not from someone who's been pregnant, but like the year after, after birth for many people, and not everybody, but if it's your child who's making similar sounds, some reason your brain doesn't assign a threat to it.

So at least that part for a lot of people is is better, but yeah. But are you talking about actually doing during pregnancy you've heard that Ms Funny can get worse. I've definitely heard that people come on recently who've said that yeah, hormones, can they feel like hormones is linked to misophonia somehow.

What have, yeah, what do you, what have you heard about misophonia pregnancy In short, question in short, and I will preface this. No, don't mean you to go in. I'm just trying to sum up my long-winded questions. Yes, .

[00:40:49] Chelsea: Oh, yes, that makes sense. So this is obviously not researched. This might, what I'm about to say, I have not gotten from any kind of research article.

It's mostly been from Facebook groups. It's just people's experience. So take that with a grain of salt, but Facebook's always correct, so I don't know. Yeah. So I have just seen a lot of people post about Hey, I'm like pregnant and I all of a sudden am 10 mymon is 10 times worse, what's going on?

And I've just seen that post so many times. That I'm like, oh my gosh, if I didn't know it could get worse, . So I definitely just hear that you develop more triggers, the triggers are just more intense or your reactions I would say, so that is very troublesome to me, especially, once you get a trigger it feels like it just intensifies over time.

You don't really hear a lot of people say they get a trigger and then later down the road it doesn't bother them anymore. Or at least it hasn't been my experience. So when I get one, it usually is theirs day and it usually just intensifies over time. And so my fear is, gosh, I'm gonna be quite a miserable person for nine months.

But also I don't wanna develop triggers in that time period if that's, they will carry on. Exactly. Yeah, I don't need any more. And so if pregnancy is gonna escalate that's a pretty terrifying thought . So pregnancy in itself is a little scary for me to think about. But then also, like you said the actual having kids aspect I think there's been a little comfort in that realm.

Cause you're, I've heard similar stories that they're kiddos, especially young kiddos, don't bother them as much. But my husband and I were watching a TV show over their night and it was a group of adult children at the dinner table with their family and they had their spouses and grandkids there.

And I just immediately started crying. Cause I was like, that is never gonna happen for me. I would hate to have my kid in therapy one day saying, oh, mom was crazy with her sound stuff. I felt like I was walking on eggshells all the time because you couldn't make certain sounds. And that's been a fear to work through of gosh, I don't wanna be in an environment or create an environment in which my kids feel or they can't be kids.

So I, my husband has encouraged me you cannot make. A decision based totally on fear. Like you need to also reach out to people who have this and who actually are doing, they find ways to manage it. And he's been encouraging of Hey, these are our kids and we have total control of our environment.

If we wanna eat with a fan on and give them plastic utensils and tell them they can't eat popcorn, like we have control over that. And so that's been helpful because, a lot of situations, whether it's work environment or social outings, we don't have control. And so actually having kids in the house doesn't really, it, it definitely changes things and you do lose control, but the same token, you actually have more control in that situation than say you're going out to a Mexican restaurant.

Yeah.

[00:43:24] Adeel: Mean, and you're think you're doing the thinking about it right now which is great. And you can prepare for running for the time when you do have kids and you'll have a bunch of strategies in place. But , yeah, maybe not great that you're already worried about it, but at least you can process it. You can go through that almost like a, I don't wanna say weaving process, but a process to like really prepare for, when, if, and when that you choose to go in that direction. And yeah, I've had, I've, I have, I've had people on the podcast who obviously have missed phone and also have kids who they've had to, who've had to deal with their reactions or to various degrees. I also know, other therapists who have misophonia and also have kids who may or may not have misophonia, so that , if you ever wanted to get in touch with other pH or listen to the app or listen to episodes, I can point you in some directions there to maybe shut some more light.

But you, so I'm, yeah. Maybe, we'll actually we're getting close to an hour but I'm sure we can go on. Yeah. I'm curious how okay. Yeah, like I'm trying to. Bookmark a couple things in my head to ask, but one, one thing is just so it sounds like yeah, you have a very kind of multi-pronged approach that is both, physical, device oriented medication, faith what are and you say like the triggers have gotten a lot worse.

You don't know how it can get any worse. Like when does it manifest you the most? Like when cuz it almost seems if you just heard your coping mechanism seems like you've got a pretty set situation. I'm just curious kind of how you where did you know, where is it, where are the holes still there?

[00:44:42] Chelsea: Yeah, I think it's actually funny that you say that cause I think my husband has pointed it out to me a lot recently of how, I talk a lot about how hard it is, but he's but you're also doing so much better. Like you have so much ability to cope with it better. And I'm like, you're right. So I think a lot of it comes down to just like years almost a trauma of it being years I've dealt with that I haven't quite realized that , I'm not. I am okay. And I'm better than I was. I think it goes back to kinda what I was saying too of a lot of times I think we get so stuck in rid it and fixing it and trying to have as much control over it as possible that it like, puts us in this vicious cycle of where we feel so out of control and helpless in it.

And I think that's something I have to sometimes realize is wow, like I actually have a lot of coping skills that do help me feel more in control. And this doesn't have to be all consuming because I am living a quality life. It looks different maybe than what I would've hoped for at times. Yes.

But I think I'm sometimes living in this past mindset that makes me feel like it's unbearable when in reality I'm doing a lot better. So I love that you pointed that out as well. And then the moments where it's hardest, I would say is probably. Just anticipating moments. I had a friend come in town recently and I though I was so excited to see her and thrilled and honored that she would come spend the weekend with me.

I was also just so anxious, dreading how I was going to be triggered throughout the weekend, and so it just sucked all the joy out of anticipating good events coming in my life. So I think that's a big one the child, like having a child question. It's just constantly on my mind and that anticipatory anxiety and dread really sucks the life out of the good things going on in my life.

Thinking about I've mentioned faith is really important to me, so going to church is something that I really enjoy doing and I become really anxious and dreadful about it because I know that there's going to be someone there who's sniffling or doing something.

[00:46:30] Adeel: Yeah. Cause at church is, there's always somebody

Yes. With which any house of worship, there's always

[00:46:34] Chelsea: somebody. Yes, exactly. They could be doing a number of sounds and that's when I get really frustrated because I'm like, Hey, this is a place where I'm supposed to feel the most peace, and I feel like losing my mind, . And so I think in moments where I have this expectation or assumption that it's supposed to be a certain way, that's when I get really upset.

And so I've, tried working on that, going back to my mindset and my faith of okay, I, if I really believe what I say I believe, then why am I so shocked when life doesn't go exactly the way I want it to? And that's, I'm not happy all the time. And so I think. My coping skills have been super great and super helpful.

And it's really a mind game sometimes at this point of, there's the suffering of misophonia itself and then there's the suffering of how you're suffering. And I think that's what I've really had to work on of sometimes it's the way I am conceptualizing misophonia in my life that actually is making me suffer a lot worse than the meson itself.

[00:47:31] Adeel: Yeah. And I think, great. And I think you and many of us, we're, we, no one was there to really coach us when we were going through all this for most of our life. So we're developing our and you're developing all these thinking patterns yourself.

So it's not like we, we have a lot of we're a, we're coaching ourselves in real time cuz , haven't really had anybody. So I think we should give ourselves a break, Wow. And, and not expect us to be perfect every time.

[00:47:54] Chelsea: Yeah. My husband has been super helpful on that, of.

He can sometimes give me the language that I need to be more compassionate or graceful towards myself. Because I can be very quick to have this inner critic and judge myself for the way that I'm thinking and responding or having these negative beliefs about myself because of misophonia. And he's a very tangible presence way to remind me and speak truth over me in that way.

Which once again, I am very fortunate to have that because I know a lot of people have the exact opposite of that, which can only I imagine just complicate things. I don't know how someone does it without good support. Sounds like a keeper. Yeah. Amir, it is. So he's here sick. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:32] Adeel: Yeah. And and a final point before I ask if you have anything else you wanna share. Cause it sounds like you had taken some notes, so I definitely wanna, I know we're getting to an hour, but if there's anything else I want to. You, the rest of your family. Especially if you were to have kids, you're gonna have to spend more time with your extend or your nuclear unextended family.

I'm curious where are they still in the I roll phase and do you feel like that's gonna get any better

[00:48:53] Chelsea: or? Yeah, that's a great question and one we've been talking a lot about lately. So we just moved to Houston from Oklahoma and so there's a physical distance now that wasn't there before.

That has helped me in a lot of ways but obviously is not sustainable long term, especially having kids, like you mentioned, there are going to be a lot more involvement in activities dinners, all of that. And so I am still trying to figure out a good way because at this point it's so a part of my life that it almost feels like this huge hidden secret I've kept from them.

And so now it's like, how do you all of a sudden drop this bombshell that like, Hey I'm doing this podcast and I have this blog and I see clients with this issue that I specialize in and you didn't know about it, . So that's a little awkward. With my family in particular, it's, more the IRO stage.

But I have thought more and more about kinda extending an olive branch in some way of like just sharing hey, this has been something I've been really embarrassed about, really shameful about, but it's impacting, especially my kids, like it's gonna impact the way that I can spend time with you and I just wanna be upfront.

And so that's a conversation. Marty like drafting and preparing in my head for and with my husband's family, I definitely felt really uncomfortable telling them because I didn't want them to feel like I was crazy. And that's, my husband's been like, I come from them and look how understanding I am.

And his sister actually is a speech pathologist and I'm her clinic says that they address Misson. And so I'm like, if anyone is a safe person to share it with, it's probably his sister. Oh, okay. That's cool. Yeah. Very cool. And so last time his family visited, we had a sound machine out and his mom commented down the sound machine.

And so we had been looking and waiting for an opportunity to say something about it. And so I did take that moment to share a little bit more about why we had the sound machine. I didn't go into depth about it but I did say, I have this neurological disorder that is really hard.

And so we have sound machines throughout the house to help me cope. And, she responded fine to that. So I think it's just finding ways where I can be a little bit more vulnerable, especially now that I have the tools to know how to communicate it before I feel like I just didn't really know how.

And so I would either laugh it off and pretend it wasn't a big deal, which gave other people the impression it wasn't a big deal or I didn't describe it in a way that made sense. And so I think now that I have better language of how to describe it, that it's a, literal neurological disorder.

And there's. Not a lot of treatment for it. I just think having that verbiage is gonna be easier to have those conversations. And so it is definitely something that I'm constantly thinking about in my head of how to have those conversations and it be productive. But something I'm still definitely working on, practicing what I've preached.

[00:51:26] Adeel: I'd love to maybe see some of your notes on that, cuz I I still need to do that with some family members as well, despite having this podcast for almost three years. Yeah. It doesn't, it was an interesting thing you said earlier about how you sometimes laugh it off and, laughter is a good medicine for misophonia, but you're right, there's a double-edged sword If we make a joke about it too much, other people get the impression that it's not serious, and I never thought about it that way. Chelsea, this is, yeah, this is super enlightening. Episode oh, interview, or just chat. I try not to make it sound too formal, but , is there anything yeah, else you want to share that you have scribbled down in on your notes or have come, has come to mind?

[00:52:00] Chelsea: Yeah, I think I've pretty much hit everything that I thought would be helpful to talk about, but I guess one thing is like takeaway for other people. I think finding community and support helps tremendously. Obviously, it's not going to get rid of your triggers, it's not going to change your situation necessarily.

But I think our ability to cope and to find meaning and hope can only happen when we are surrounded by supportive people, which is really hard to find in our realm. But I have found Facebook groups and other this podcast. So many other things that have been so helpful. I don't know if you would frame it this way, but I feel like you've made sense out of your suffering by helping other people through the podcast.

And so one way that's helped me is by write writing about it and talking about it. And so I think that is healing in itself when you have a community of people. So I just think finding people, whether it's virtually whether it's through a podcast or a Facebook group, whatever it is that's been something that's been so helpful in healing to me.

So I don't know if this would be helpful. I know people come from so many different backgrounds, but I just started a separate blog from my website that is for people suffering. Misophonia, chronic illness, disability, and it's nothing super, special. It's just my weekly takeaways whether it's something I read that I found really helpful, some song I listened to, a new coping skill that I learned that's helping me.

So I do have a separate kind of personal blog for that as well. Cause I'm just trying to, hopefully like you were doing gather a bunch of people and resources and speak into it so they don't feel so alone. Yeah,

[00:53:30] Adeel: I'll definitely link to that. And that reminds me, I want to see this Twitter account that we've heard so much about.

Yeah,

[00:53:35] Chelsea: that is taken down .

[00:53:37] Adeel: Okay. Oh, maybe I'll try to find it on the way back machine or but anyways no, that's, it's super, yeah, I totally agree 110% with everything you said. It's important. Connect and find community. Facebook's great for that. Sometimes it gets a little bit noisy in some of those big groups.

Yeah. But if you can connect with people on a deeper level, and that's Yeah. You're right. That's why I started this is to take it beyond take our kind of sharing beyond, 140 characters or or whatever, and just go a little deeper cuz we have surprising amount of things in common.

Not to mention all the guilt and shame. Like it was surprising despite having known about misophonia before this, starting this, like how similar we were. We all are on a deep level because of Yeah. know, The history of the acceptance and awareness of this condition. No.

Yeah. Great. Great things you just shared with us. I will link to all those things in the show notes and yeah, just say thank you. This is it's a really interesting episode that I know it's gonna help a lot of

[00:54:27] Chelsea: people. Yeah. Thank you again for asking the questions and opening this up for people.

I know that I. Gained a lot of encouragement and hope and support through listening to other people's stories. So I appreciate you taking the time to interview people and edit. And I know it takes probably a lot of time and energy, so I keep you using your resources to bring people encouragement too.

Thank you again,

[00:54:47] Adeel: Chelsea. Really enjoyed that. I've got links to where you can reach Chelsea in the show notes and also tag her on Instagram. If you like this episode, don't forget you to leave a quick review or just hit the five stars wherever you listen to this podcast. You can hit B up by email@hellomissonpodcast.com or go to the website misson podcast.com.

It's even easier to send a message on Instagram at misson podcast. Support the show by visiting the Patreon at paton.com/podcast. The music, as always, by Moby, and until next week, wishing you peace and.